Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

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ProTouring442
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Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by ProTouring442 »

Good morning!!

It's sunny and 76° here in redneck heaven (Harriman, Tennessee).

Much water has passed under the bridge since we last left my silly build. I am proud to say, the thing still runs strong as ever, though some of the peripherals have fallen into disrepair. Mostly, the never redone bits have continued to age.

In the meantime, my mother has been diagnosed with PSP (Progressive Supranuclear Palsy). Essentially, this is a 3 to 6 year death sentence where her brain slowly dies. It's been absolute hell on my father, and much of my time has been spent traveling back and forth to Florida in my '03 Miata. I take a back way, so the trip is as enjoyable as possible (though I'm starting to memorize much of the 600-and-some mile trip).

Nonetheless, it's time to get some stuff done, but please understand, this thread might have fits and starts and periods of no activity.

A quick rundown of where we stand and where we're headed:

Currently, it runs great and shifts great.

An inspection of the underbody reveals no rust, and, if the one body bolt I pulled can be trusted, even the body mounts and hardware are in good shape.

It currently has 3:whatever a stock Wagoneer comes with gears, with tires which are too tall for the gearing.

Body is in great shape, with no rust and minimal damage.

Power windows don't.

Dash needs a rethink

Plans:

Chassis
Wash the underside to rid of as much excess grease, grime, oil, etc., as possible.
Paint the underside with some sort of undercoat/bed liner (suggestions?)
Replace the body mounts with urethane
Install 1" body lift (will make some problems go away)
Replace springs (stock height)
Replace shocks (Bilstein?)
Replace steering gear box (Redhead?)
Replace steering linkage
Redo bottom radiator mount (now with more room)
Rebuild both axles (staying with 44s)
Install locking differentials (Auburn Select-A-Loc)
Install better gearing (4.11?)
Install NP242
Install electric parking brake mechanism
Rear disc brake conversion?
Front brake upgrade (must fit with 16" wheels)?

Body
Panel by panel strip, repair, paint (Ford Wimbledon White)
Replace power window mechanisms
Remove luggage racks?
Install moonroof
Replace tailgate
Replace grill
Install older style woodgrain
Install custom older style woodgrain trim

Interior
Redo custom dash (totally new design)
Install new stereo
Install Ham radio
Install new CB radio
Custom mount 4-Foxbody Mustang GT seats
Build custom full length console
Build spare tire mount, storage compartments, etc, in rear cargo area
Build door panels, arm rests, etc.
Upholster what I can
Have things upholstered I can't

Image

Image

Image

So there you are! If you have any questions or comments, feel free to throw them at me!

sierrablue
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by sierrablue »

Sorry to hear about your mom. I can imagine it's hard enough seeing her go, let alone seeing what it's doing to your dad.

If you have the money (and a respirator), I'd recommend the POR-15 chassis coat stuff, which gets brushed on. It's self leveling and holds up pretty well, and it's pretty quick and easy to touch up once you've done it once.

On the steering box, since I see you're a Miata guy, I'd recommend a ZJ Grand Cherokee box. It's valved a lot tighter and has more travel.

As far as the front brakes go, assuming it's stock, it already has 3/4 ton Chevy brakes. Technically you could swap to 8-lug and get a bigger rotor (and wheels), but at that point you should get the Ford 4-piston D44 brakes. Those will stop it on a dime. But really, if you bleed the brakes and put some
braided stainless lines on it, you should be able to lock up all four wheels at 60 mph (I can and mine are the same brakes, only not power). The big advantage to rear discs is that they're lighter and more pleasant to deal with.

I think that's all I have--I don't know about all of the stuff, and it looks like most of it is just a to-do list 😉.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by ProTouring442 »

sierrablue wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:22 pm Sorry to hear about your mom. I can imagine it's hard enough seeing her go, let alone seeing what it's doing to your dad.

If you have the money (and a respirator), I'd recommend the POR-15 chassis coat stuff, which gets brushed on. It's self leveling and holds up pretty well, and it's pretty quick and easy to touch up once you've done it once.

On the steering box, since I see you're a Miata guy, I'd recommend a ZJ Grand Cherokee box. It's valved a lot tighter and has more travel.

As far as the front brakes go, assuming it's stock, it already has 3/4 ton Chevy brakes. Technically you could swap to 8-lug and get a bigger rotor (and wheels), but at that point you should get the Ford 4-piston D44 brakes. Those will stop it on a dime. But really, if you bleed the brakes and put some
braided stainless lines on it, you should be able to lock up all four wheels at 60 mph (I can and mine are the same brakes, only not power). The big advantage to rear discs is that they're lighter and more pleasant to deal with.

I think that's all I have--I don't know about all of the stuff, and it looks like most of it is just a to-do list 😉.
Thank you... it's hell. It's hell on him, it's hell on my sister (she lives about an hour from them) and it's hell on my wife (who has MS and thus needs my assistance).

But, we are a strong family, always looking out for each other.

Front brakes are stock, save for the GM caliper with the larger piston.

Locking all 4 is not a good indication of stopping power. If the tires are locked, the brakes aren't doing any of the stopping.

Stopping a vehicle is, essentially, converting forward momentum into heat, then dissipating that heat into the surrounding air. When you lock the brakes, the rotors are no longer transferring the energy from forward momentum into heat, and instead, the tires are doing it. Tires are very poor transmitters of heat.

What you want is a system capable of slowing the vehicle at the peak of tire grip capability, thus transferring the forward momentum into heat and dissipating it quickly enough the rotor doesn't become saturated (causing brake fade).

I'll have to look into a rear disc kit.

sierrablue
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by sierrablue »

ProTouring442 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:03 pm
sierrablue wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:22 pm Sorry to hear about your mom. I can imagine it's hard enough seeing her go, let alone seeing what it's doing to your dad.

If you have the money (and a respirator), I'd recommend the POR-15 chassis coat stuff, which gets brushed on. It's self leveling and holds up pretty well, and it's pretty quick and easy to touch up once you've done it once.

On the steering box, since I see you're a Miata guy, I'd recommend a ZJ Grand Cherokee box. It's valved a lot tighter and has more travel.

As far as the front brakes go, assuming it's stock, it already has 3/4 ton Chevy brakes. Technically you could swap to 8-lug and get a bigger rotor (and wheels), but at that point you should get the Ford 4-piston D44 brakes. Those will stop it on a dime. But really, if you bleed the brakes and put some
braided stainless lines on it, you should be able to lock up all four wheels at 60 mph (I can and mine are the same brakes, only not power). The big advantage to rear discs is that they're lighter and more pleasant to deal with.

I think that's all I have--I don't know about all of the stuff, and it looks like most of it is just a to-do list 😉.
Thank you... it's hell. It's hell on him, it's hell on my sister (she lives about an hour from them) and it's hell on my wife (who has MS and thus needs my assistance).

But, we are a strong family, always looking out for each other.

Front brakes are stock, save for the GM caliper with the larger piston.

Locking all 4 is not a good indication of stopping power. If the tires are locked, the brakes aren't doing any of the stopping.

Stopping a vehicle is, essentially, converting forward momentum into heat, then dissipating that heat into the surrounding air. When you lock the brakes, the rotors are no longer transferring the energy from forward momentum into heat, and instead, the tires are doing it. Tires are very poor transmitters of heat.

What you want is a system capable of slowing the vehicle at the peak of tire grip capability, thus transferring the forward momentum into heat and dissipating it quickly enough the rotor doesn't become saturated (causing brake fade).

I'll have to look into a rear disc kit.
Well I wish you all well, or as well as you can be.

But if you can lock up all four, sure it won't be stopping, but braking power isn't your problem then. At that point you need more traction aka wider and/or stickier tires. Mine at least have really good control--they unlock as soon as you lift a tiny little bit. Is that right?
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Topic author
ProTouring442
Posts: 673
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:28 am
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by ProTouring442 »

sierrablue wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:09 pm But if you can lock up all four, sure it won't be stopping, but braking power isn't your problem then. At that point you need more traction aka wider and/or stickier tires. Mine at least have really good control--they unlock as soon as you lift a tiny little bit. Is that right?
Locking indicates the ability to shock the tire into losing grip. Once it's broken free, it slides much more easily as the contact patch overheats, loosing it's grip.

I'll give an example: my first car was a 1966 Chevelle convertible with factory 4-wheel drum brakes. I could lock the tires with little issue, but hauling the car down from 110mph at the end of the dragstrip meant applying the brakes as hard as I could (without jamming them on and locking them) until the car stopped slowing down, letting up for the count of ten, then applying them again until I was going slow enough to turn onto one of the exit roads.

The brakes would fade because they could absorb the forward momentum of the car, turn it into heat, and bleed that heat into the air, fast enough.

sierrablue
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Location: MN/CO

Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by sierrablue »

I guess it's all about what you're wanting out of your brakes. They're the same as the square body brakes--any of those will bolt on. Are you actually having any brake fade from it? If so, is it possible that something is dragging or worn out? Are they bled well?

If you want to make it stop like the Miata, keep in mind that it has twice as much weight to stop, and a similar width of tire that it's trying to put that energy through. Not saying that it CAN'T be done, just that it's going to be hard to make it stop that well.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
User avatar

Topic author
ProTouring442
Posts: 673
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:28 am
Location: Harriman, Tennessee
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by ProTouring442 »

sierrablue wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:09 am I guess it's all about what you're wanting out of your brakes. They're the same as the square body brakes--any of those will bolt on. Are you actually having any brake fade from it? If so, is it possible that something is dragging or worn out? Are they bled well?

If you want to make it stop like the Miata, keep in mind that it has twice as much weight to stop, and a similar width of tire that it's trying to put that energy through. Not saying that it CAN'T be done, just that it's going to be hard to make it stop that well.
No particular issue, but stopping better is a good thing. We were just discussing how brakes work as you had expressed a common misconception (being able to lock the brakes means they are good brakes).

Now, on to my packing for my trip to Florida.

Good chat!

Stoffregen M-sports
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

Brakes are one of my hot topics. I love the stopping power of big brakes, but many times, the power comes in the booster. I am not aware of any large booster available for the Cherokee/Wagoneer, but it may be worth a call to a specialist. I use Power Brake Sales in Sacramento -https://powerbrakes.com/.

There is a large front brake option using a mix of Ford and Chevy components, but I haven't pinned that down yet. The guys at Fourwheeler mag did a writeup on that about a decade ago.

Rear discs - I would stay away from rear discs. Most rear disc kits use a "flaoting" type caliper which is not designed to "float" in the way that is required for a semi-flaoting rear axle. The problem is the side-side or end play in the axle shaft. Long story short, the result is overheating pads and premature pad/rotor wear. Plus, there are no good rear disc options with a parking brake. Rear brakes do only about 25% of the braking, and drums are more than capable of handling that.

Undercoating - I use SEM tar based undercoating and it works really well. It's not as thick as some others, but I see that as a good thing. Thick undercoating can trap moisture which promotes rust. The key to successful undercoating is in the prep. You'll need a clean surface. I just did the inner rear fenders in my Cherokee and I was able to get the original undercoating off using a needle scaler, then a wire wheel to clean followed by a quick hit with a 3" DA sander and 320 grit paper. SEM etching primer first, then the undercoating. It takes time to cure, and if it's cold out, use heat lamps. The final product is great looking and resilient.

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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by ProTouring442 »

Stoffregen M-sports wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:58 amRear discs - I would stay away from rear discs. Most rear disc kits use a "flaoting" type caliper which is not designed to "float" in the way that is required for a semi-flaoting rear axle. The problem is the side-side or end play in the axle shaft. Long story short, the result is overheating pads and premature pad/rotor wear. Plus, there are no good rear disc options with a parking brake. Rear brakes do only about 25% of the braking, and drums are more than capable of handling that.

Undercoating - I use SEM tar based undercoating and it works really well. It's not as thick as some others, but I see that as a good thing. Thick undercoating can trap moisture which promotes rust. The key to successful undercoating is in the prep. You'll need a clean surface. I just did the inner rear fenders in my Cherokee and I was able to get the original undercoating off using a needle scaler, then a wire wheel to clean followed by a quick hit with a 3" DA sander and 320 grit paper. SEM etching primer first, then the undercoating. It takes time to cure, and if it's cold out, use heat lamps. The final product is great looking and resilient.
Dana 44 uses the outer bearings to locate the axle, and thus should not float.

I'll check out the SEM stuff. I was thinking some sort of bed liner. Decisions...

Thanks!!

Stoffregen M-sports
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

ProTouring442 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:19 am
Dana 44 uses the outer bearings to locate the axle, and thus should not float.

I'll check out the SEM stuff. I was thinking some sort of bed liner. Decisions...

Thanks!!
In theory, right, but the single bearing on the outer axle end is nowhere near as stable as a full floating setup with two bearings and a couple of nuts keeping it in place. Yes, I'm splitting hairs a bit. But I like things to be perfect.

As I said about bedliner, it never sticks as intended and can create pockets in which moisture can hide. The best bedliner is put on hot so it flows.
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by SJTD »

If you choose to use a bedliner I would avoid Raptor. I've used it in places on my Wag. It has no resilience so it chips. Seems to be urethane paint with some sort of filler like chalk or some such.

I've used Durabak and find it much better. I've got the stuff I peeled out of a roller pan several years ago and can still ball it up in my hand and it will flatten out without cracking.

I think I'd still use a real undercoating, though.
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'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.
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Re: Bill's Daily Driver Build Pt 3 (with more Comments, Questions, and Conundrums)

Post by ProTouring442 »

Stoffregen M-sports wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:30 am In theory, right, but the single bearing on the outer axle end is nowhere near as stable as a full floating setup with two bearings and a couple of nuts keeping it in place. Yes, I'm splitting hairs a bit. But I like things to be perfect.

As I said about bedliner, it never sticks as intended and can create pockets in which moisture can hide. The best bedliner is put on hot so it flows.
SJTD wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:54 am If you choose to use a bedliner I would avoid Raptor. I've used it in places on my Wag. It has no resilience so it chips. Seems to be urethane paint with some sort of filler like chalk or some such.

I've used Durabak and find it much better. I've got the stuff I peeled out of a roller pan several years ago and can still ball it up in my hand and it will flatten out without cracking.

I think I'd still use a real undercoating, though.

Thanks guys!
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