Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

Chubbinius wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:04 pm Great to see how much work you are getting done on the Chief and how quickly you are able to flow through it! Enjoying this thread very much, thank you for sharing your process and work!
I've only got one two-post lift in the shop so when I start a personal project that ties up space, I have to get it back mobile as quickly as possible, so as to not piss off the paying customers.

Thanks for watching. I haven't been this excited about a personal vehicle for a while. You guys will see more of this one.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

Stuka wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:54 pm
Stoffregen M-sports wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:22 am I've been eyeballing the Autolite distributor. Summit sells a rebuilt unit for about $130. Is there a tech section that explains or shows how to convert?

Thanks again.
It uses a different ignition module, so that would have to be wired in. It’s why many go HEI instead, just one wire.

But the Duraspark setup is covered by any TSM for 78+.

If your current setup is working, you can stick with it. If you find you can’t find a good ignition module that lasts, consider switching then.
I did see a writeup somewhere about the wiring, but if it's straightforward enough, I'm sure I can handle it. For smog purposes, it would be better to keep a factory distributor and control box, even if it's for a different year. Some of these smog techs can get persnickety about parts changes. In other words, someone might raise a stink about a clearly aftermarket HEI, but probably wouldn't know the difference between the Duraspark and the Prestolite.

I used to haul my dirt bikes with a Dodge van, and it had a similar electronic control box issue, so we always carried a spare. It also had a plastic carburetor...Yuck!
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

One of my criteria for a daily driver is being weather tight. Seems like a reasonable request, right? Well, having trouble sourcing a replacement tailgate window motor, I decided to buy one from another application. The part in the pics look identical to one another, but I'm sure there are differences not obvious until I see and compare the original with the new Buick motor. I figure worst case, I use the electrical portion of the new replacement motor and fit it onto the original one. While I was at it, I bought a relay kit from BJ's. I'll let you know how it works out.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

Tailgate motor and regulator cleaned and installed. There was a bit of an issue with the new Buick window motor, the three legs that fasten it to the regulator were .250" longer than the Jeep unit, so it clearly wouldn't fit. After an hour cleaning and polishing the inside of the original Jeep window motor, all appeared to be working fine, so it was installed and I quickly found a problem. The motor body was so long that the wire connector actually contacted the body, causing the connector to not seat properly and loose contact. Other than that, the motor worked fine. But, I said screw it and milled the three legs of the new Buick motor down and installed that one instead. The Buick's motor housing was about 1/2" shorter and cleared the body, so it was the logical solution.

I also bought and installed a relay kit and window pin kit from BJ's while I was in there. The relay makes a huge difference as the window now goes up in about two seconds. So fast that I'm afraid it could smash the glass if it weren't adjusted properly.

That's all for now. Next up will be the steering box, which I ordered from RedHead. Hopefully ready to drive by Spring!
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

Ok, it's been over a year since I posted on the Cherokee project. It's because I have another thread going on ExPo.

My Cherokee has been one of the most fun vehicles I've ever owned. It is basically daily driver ready and I do use it to shuttle the kids to school and run errands. So far, the only issues have been the OEM distributor, which blew up, and a troublesome transfer case switch. Other than that, I've got a possible issue with the EVAP system which pushes fuel out of the filler neck when it's anywhere near full.

I work on the Jeep weekly, making things nice and new, but also tweaking on the original stuff to make it better. It still needs an interior and windshield, which I plan on tackling after I get a couple holes in the floor welded up.

Apologies in advance. I'm going to photobomb you guys.

Original wheels powder coated.
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HVAC rebuild with GM 4-way heater valve.
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Stock suspension vs Deaver from Bj's.
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Steering rebuild.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

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Bent/broken axle shaft replacement with new thick Spicer diff cover.
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Harmonic balancer replacement.
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HEI install and resulting exploded muffler.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

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Gauge cluster clean up and repair.
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Toyota coolant and windshield washer reservoir install.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

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And the most major repair to date, rust repair on the rear fenders, inner and outer. For some reason they are out of order, but you can see the procedure and results.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

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These pics are from last fall, but here she is. I love it.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Yeller »

Great looking truck!
Thanks for posting up.
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

1974 Bronco “Broncno”
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threa ... st-3411909

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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

Thank you.

It's got one issue that I am currently investigating. The fuel tank spews fuel when at or near full. I'm 90% sure the charcoal canister and fuel tank vent hoses are correct, but have not yet blown through the lines to see if they are blocked. Could also be charcoal canister I guess. Any suggestions?

Oh yeah. Started building a center console yesterday. 4 cupholders, massive storage compartment and USB chargers front and rear. I think I may install a dim light that shines on the rear floor whenever the headlights are on too. Considreing seat heaters, and the console will be a great hidey-hole for the wiring and relays. I'm building it out of 16/18 ga steel. Should be pretty nice.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Stuka »

Cool to see an update! And wow, the muffler explosion is something else.

Does it spew fuel out of the filler neck?
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

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Yes, it was a large bang. Of course, we had the distributor 180 out. The original distributor broke the gear so I made a guess, and I was wrong. Aside from the $30 muffler, there was no other damage. And I was able to fish the broken bits out of the timing cover.

When the tank is full or near full, fuel pushes out of the fuel cap. It pressurizes the tank and I had it actually blow back on me once. Got fuel all over my new uncured paint.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

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So I have been trying to diagnose and fix the fuel blow back issue lately. Fuel will sometimes blow out of the filler when the cap is removed. Dangerous and frustrating.

I pulled the tank last week and found that one of the breather nipples was plugged. Or more accurately, the line inside the tank that goes from the filler hose connection area to the front of the tank was plugged inside. This bothers me because I had the tank boiled and sealed, and they missed the plugged line...Anyway. I was able to fish a long section of MIG wire inside the tube, with great difficulty, and get it flowing again.

While I was in there, I decided to replace the worn fuel gauge sending unit. My gauge read full no problem, but at 1/3 on the gauge, the tank was dry. The culprit was a worn sending unit. The cup that rides across the windings was worn down to a hole. So, I ordered a new sending unit from BJ's and what I got looks suspiciously like a Crown or Omix sending unit (not a fan of either brands...). Now the gauge reads empty with 100% accuracy. 5 gallons is just above the "E" on the gauge (so far so good), but 10 gallons reads about 1/4 on the gauge and 15 gallons reads about 1/3 on the gauge. So very frustrated, but the fault lies with me, as I should have checked the readings with the sending unit out of the tank before I put it all back together. I could always put a resistor in the wire, but I am disappointed in the parts supply for vintage Jeeps these days. In some cases, the parts are just crap. Oh, I also had to modify the sending unit slightly to fit it into the tank. That really bothered me too.

Back to the fuel breather system. Searching through the factory parts book, I was not able to find the tank used in my vehicle. The closetest one shows to be from a 1978 (which makes sense as my truck is a 77), but my breather system is much simpler than any diagrams I was able to find. After I installed the tank, I tried to blow back through the hose at the charcoal canister (the line to the tank) and it still won't "pass gas". I made sure they were all free flowing before I reconnected them all, so do you guys think that maybe fuel is acting as a clog of sorts?

I'd appreciate any input. Thanks.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Yeller »

My guess would be the charcoal canister is plugged. I dealt with some of the same issues with my truck, the vent lines were plugged and I believe the original tank does not have enough expansion room for the fuel. Mine was particularly bad when it was hot out, cold fuel from an underground tank, warmed, expanded and overflowed through the filler. I made a liquid vapor separator tank that is mounted above the fuel tank and no more leaks. I do need to reroute the vent line, I do get vapor gassing in the cab with the rear window open driving at low speeds, 4 wheeling for example.

I hear you on the crappy new parts. I too installed a new tank and sender the gauge is calibrated properly but the float is hanging up at 5/8 full, I can go 80-100 miles before the gauge moves. But empty is empty so at least I’m not getting a surprise. The sender was installed in the tank when it arrived.
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

1974 Bronco “Broncno”
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threa ... st-3411909

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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

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Yeller wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:21 am My guess would be the charcoal canister is plugged.

I believe the original tank does not have enough expansion room for the fuel.

I made a liquid vapor separator tank that is mounted above the fuel tank and no more leaks. I do need to reroute the vent line, I do get vapor gassing in the cab with the rear window open driving at low speeds, 4 wheeling for example.

I hear you on the crappy new parts. I too installed a new tank and sender the gauge is calibrated properly but the float is hanging up at 5/8 full, I can go 80-100 miles before the gauge moves. But empty is empty so at least I’m not getting a surprise. The sender was installed in the tank when it arrived.
Interesting. I hadn't considered the volume of vapor, which in hindsight, makes complete sense. There is not a vapor canister on this vehicle, other than the charcoal canister, which is very small. Slightly more modern vehicles have an entirely dedicated canister just for vapor expansion. They also have vents at each corner of the fuel tank.

I suppose I could use a tank from a Land Cruiser and plumb it in using the 3/4" tank vent plus the two small 1/8" hoses. It would be easy enough to fit inside the quarter panel.

For what it's worth, I don't think the charcoal canister is clogged, though I haven't actually tested it yet. The line was disconnected at the canister when I blew through it back towards the tank. I'll try again with more air pressure and see if I can hear/feel anything.

For the sending unit - I think I am going to rebuild my old one. The new one had a ratcheting feel to it, which would explain your hanging up problem. Probably fewer windings on it, making it stick in spots.

Thanks for the insight.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by tgreese »

Stoffregen M-sports wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:44 am ... There is not a vapor canister on this vehicle, other than the charcoal canister, which is very small. Slightly more modern vehicles have an entirely dedicated canister just for vapor expansion. They also have vents at each corner of the fuel tank.
...
Year, model, equipment? It's clear from this thread that it's a wide track Cherokee, but I quickly looked at the beginning of the thread and found no year. Makes a big difference re the emissions equipment.

Suggest you put your year/model/equipment info in your sig file.

Some earlier model Jeeps (ie 70-71-72 CJs) came with expansion tanks in regions where vapor recovery was required. Those fuel tanks also had vapor taps at every corner; these were replaced with internal tank plumbing in subsequent years. I would expect tanks meant for vapor recovery accross the whole Jeep line would have internal vent plumbing to the vapor recovery nipples. I don't recall any dedicated expansion tanks after that '72ish era.

I would not assume that an additional expansion tank would make any difference; the fuel tank's internal air pocket and filler neck volume should be plenty of expansion volume. The charcoal canister is about the size of a 2# coffee can, and there is a liquid check valve between it and the fuel tank. Prior to the plastic fuel tanks, there was a liquid check valve in the fender cavity, and later the check valves sat in a grommet in the plastic tanks.

The vapor plumbing and fuel tank plumbing change a lot from year to year between 1970 and 1980. I would make sure that I have all components that are specific to my model and year, and then it should function fine. If you can't find exact replacements, you can pick work-alike parts from other vehicles, or MTS company offers some work-alike parts that they put together. http://www.mtscompany.com/
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by tgreese »

Also, Scotty Kilmer recently suggested a smoke machine to find vapor leaks. No experience with this tool, but he points out you can put the smoke into the tank and look for where the leak is. Aside from missing/broken components, this seems the most likely source of smelly vapors. Should not leak vapors.

Do you have the right gas cap? Lots of changes (again, we need the year) and a bunch of the OEM numbers are NLA. PO could have subbed something that fits and leaks.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by tgreese »

Looking back through your posts, the year is hidden in one of your prior posts. 1977 49 states Cherokees do not have FTVC (fuel tank vapor control). Only California Cherokees had FTVC. If you have a 49-states vehicle with a California gas cap, pressure will build up. Look at the TSM - page 41-4A.

I believe the original emissions sticker should tell whether it's a CA car or not. Or maybe your local inspection station or Jeep dealer can look up the VIN.

'74-77 fuel tank is illustration Gr 4 - L6 and L7 in the '74-80 parts book. Why is that illustration wrong?

Another potentially helpful (?) suggestion - if you have technical questions, they will get better visibility if you separate them from your build thread and post a new thread with a descriptive title in the stock or modified tech forum.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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Stoffregen M-sports
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Re: Cherokee Wide Track Resurrection - Stoffregen Motorsports

Post by Stoffregen M-sports »

Hi guys. Sorry for the radio silence. We had our first road race in our new car and we were away.

Yes, vehicle 1977. Pretty sure it's CA, but I will double check.

As I mentioned earlier, the breather system in my Cherokee is much abbreviated. Of all the diagrams in the factory parts book, none of them show the actual layout of the venting hoses, filler neck or even fuel tank which I have in my Cherokee. The closest I found was a 1978, but even then, the drawing shows multiple hoses/lines coming out of the top of the inner fender well, and even a valve. My Cherokee has only one hard line and no valve. I can take another look and snap a pic for you guys.

Re the fuel cap, good luck finding a cap for a 1977 Cherokee. I've purchased two and neither of them were correct. Hell, they didn't even fit. What I did was scab the exterior parts from one of the new ones and installed it on my original cap. That worked, but even then, it may have been replaced at some point in the past.

My thinking has always been - factory is great, but don't be afraid to modify. I'm sure I am smart enough to re-engineer the breather system to work properly or better even than the factory setup. With your help of course. If I need to build my own filler neck to utilize a commonly available cap, I'll do that. If I need to drill holes in the corners of the tank and install 1/4" hose nipples, I'll do that too.
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