Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

[zonearc]

Hi! So, this topic is about how to drastically increase the viability of towing with a 1990 Grand Waggy. So, I'll set the stage ..

We have a '90 with the 360. Rear axle is a Dana 60, front is a HP44. A727 w/ NP229.

My plan:

- Reinforce the frame
- Build a hitch
- Build 350-400 hp, higher torque 360
- Tow between 3k (aluminum trailer with quads) to 7k (built JKU on tons, 40s on aluminum trailer)

Notes:

- Yes, it wasn't designed for it. Anything can be done.
- No, I won't swap it for a 3/4 ton truck, your favorite Diesel, etc. yes, I get this isn't ideal, but getting that Dodge/Ford/Chevy is not as cool, it's not a Jeep, and the last thing I need is yet another vehicle taking up insurance, space, etc. =)
- I don't really care about gas mileage. These aren't long hauls, the trails are 45 minutes away.
- I don't want to do a motor swap. Main reason is we're restoring it to look original and while there was a need to swap axles, I don't want it all to go away. A built 360 in AMC blue, deck to the 9s can turn out 400hp/450torque and should pull a trailer fine I'm thinking? Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Current Concerns:
- Can the NP229 handle the load? I'm not familiar with the t-case.I know the D20 was a joke, but this is a much newer t-case.
- Anyone do any heavier loads behind the 3 speed? I'm curious what gear ratio you settled with in the axles to keep the RPMs under control without an overdrive, but kept solid power up grades.
- Anyone got any pics on what they did for the frame? Welding on angle and/or boxing in the frame is no big deal, but I'm curious if there's some specifics spots that frequently pose issues.
- Anything else you can think of for feedback.

Thanks !

[tgreese]

Mmm. Not sure why you are dissing the Dana 20.

Many have towed moderate sized Airstreams with Wagoneers. I don't think there's much that's controversial about that. Might want to think about the brakes.

Why did you mate a TH350 to a 360? That seems like a pretty odd combo. Supposedly the TH350 can be built to be strong enough, but conventional wisdom says it's a medium-duty transmission that isn't up to towing heavy loads. The factory-equipment Chryco A727 (TF727) would be a better choice. Both the TH400 and TF727 used by Jeep in GWs are very strong and durable. Not terribly efficient, but tough.

[tedlovesjeeps71]

Biggest issue I see is tow vehicle weight. While waggys have towed more than their share of travel trailers and the like, if you start getting too heavy of a trailer it will "push" the waggy.
Then there is the tranny. A 3 speed is gonna work hard and get poor mpg on the long, flat stretches. Overdrive will help a lot and allow you to go a little deeper into axle gears to help pull grades.
Then you have brakes. What's the 60 and 44 out of? Disc/drum? Discs all the way around would be better and adding hydroboost will Hel as well. But you'll definitely want to make sure the trailer has brakes and your controller is working well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SJTD]

Yeah, only bad thing about the 20 is the 2.0 low range. Doesn't sound like it would have been a drawback in this application.

[rocklaurence]

Make sure you have good trailer brakes! Tub the rear, narrow the D60 to get daul wheels under it. Put an "X" brace on the rear section of frame and tie it into the trailer hitch. Set up big brakes and 4.11/4.56 gears depending on tires.

[tgreese]

Yeah, only bad thing about the 20 is the 2.0 low range. Doesn't sound like it would have been a drawback in this application.

It'll break the output housing (output shaft?) if you subject it to a large, repeated impact load, but that seems to be limited to trail-abuse situations. Otherwise it's pretty strong.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Uber-20/

[fulsizjeep]

I'll just offer up some of my own experience. I have towed some crazy stuff behind a Wagoneer. Some of it I should have had stabilizers. When the loads got 4K or more the wheelbase of the Wagoneer is at a wheel base disadvantage. I could hardly believe the difference between a J20 and a Waggy. The wider, longer J20 beats out the Wag in load control. Good Luck on your project.

[zonearc]

Sorry, the Waggy has an A727.

79 Ford, so rear is still Drums. I'll be welding on brackets and doing a disc conversion in the rear. And it'll have solid trailer brakes for sure.

Sorry for the misunderstanding on the D20 transfer case. I've heard a lot of bad things about them in the past, particularly with heavy towing loads. Is the NP229 ok though?

I would also be using a weight distributing hitch so help with the pushing a bit since some of that is related to tongue weight.

Tires are 35s so I was thinking of changing R&P to 4.10s/4.11s. I would like to avoid going to 4.56s or above due to it being a 3 speed.

Overdrive - Any experience on using Gear Vendors?

[letank]

Do the math on expen$e$... add the $afety factor$... but the only time I towed 4K, no brakes, no power...

[mx71]

http://www.bjsoffroad.com/Receiver-Hitc ... p_884.html

[zonearc]

Thanks for the link!!

[Stuka]

Biggest problem with wagoneers and heavy loads is their very narrow width and shorter wheelbase. These are exacerbated once you lift them. 3k is no problem. 7k is more than what is safe IMO. Everything you have planned will make it better, for sure. But a 108" wheel base can't be easily overcome. Even my short bed J10 (119" WB) was significantly more stable than my '75 Cherokee at 108".

As for the D20, they got a bad rap with the older course spline output versions. But this was changed to a fine spline output, and I have not seen one of these break under regular trail duty or the like.

Not saying what you wan't can't be done. I am just saying a J-Truck would do a significantly better job.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[candymancan]

curious hiw they ever managed to tow back in the 50-60-70-80s with all the mods you seem to have to do today.. :-X.

[Phils67]

The engine will handle that, although the transmission and final drive gearing could pose a problem with that. Id say high 3s/low to mid 4s for gears. Ever consider a manual swap? Some of those old gear boxes were pretty bulletproof. I just think the trans may not handle grades well witt that kind if weight. The frame with some reinforcing shouldnt be an issue. As far as the Dana 20 being weak, the only weak link i have ever come across is the output but it can be upgraded and be a pretty tough little transfer. Yoke and u-joint upgrades would help also. A weight distribution hitch would help with sway and taking up some of the tongue weight from the frame. A good brake controller like a tekonsha prodigy p3 would also make a big difference. If the trailer is tandem axle i would assume both axles have brakes but if it is only one braking axle i would say add brakes to the second axle. Ive installed setups that defied physics and turned out safe, efficient, and legal. I work for a trailer company and deal with this stuff daily. Just my two cents.

[zonearc]

Awesome help here so far! Quick question ... I know I have a 229 Tcase but want to 100% verify which trans I have to make sure a previous owner didn't change anyhting. It looks factory, no obvious adapters but no trans tags. Can you verify by the oil pan that this is a A727?







THANKS!!!!

[Stuka]

Awesome help here so far! Quick question ... I know I have a 229 Tcase but want to 100% verify which trans I have to make sure a previous owner didn't change anyhting. It looks factory, no obvious adapters but no trans tags. Can you verify by the oil pan that this is a A727?

THANKS!!!!

That is a TF727 pan. And the NP229 is fairly strong. It was used in J20's, and I have seen plenty of guys run them in heavily modified Jeeps without issues provided they don't kiss any rocks with the housing.

[Stuka]

curious hiw they ever managed to tow back in the 50-60-70-80s with all the mods you seem to have to do today.. :-X.

No wagoneer has ever been rated to tow 7k pounds. The max they were ever rated at was 5k, and that was back before we had any sort of towing standards. Companies just did best case ratings that they more or less came up with off the top of their heads. If you were to use the SAE J2807 standards on a wagoneer, it wold most likely be rated at around 2500-3000 max. Not to mention back then speed limits were lower, and everything had bad brakes, so somebody emergency stopping in front of you was not as sudden as it would be today.

[ugly j10]

add a good trans cooler and trans temp gauge as well

[merrill77]

No wagoneer has ever been rated to tow 7k pounds.

The '77 sales brochure says 7500 with the heavy-duty towing package. I am not saying you're wrong - I am a newb here - I'm just curious why the brochure and you are in disagreement? What am I not getting?

[Stuka]

No wagoneer has ever been rated to tow 7k pounds.

The '77 sales brochure says 7500 with the heavy-duty towing package. I am not saying you're wrong - I am a newb here - I'm just curious why the brochure and you are in disagreement? What am I not getting?

I know J-Trucks were rated over 5k. Its possible I am wrong, but I have not seen anything that says a wagoneer was rated that high, but again, I could be wrong. But having towed with a Cherokee, you would have to have a death wish to tow 7500lbs with one. Even 4k was sketchy IMO.