84 Grand Wagoneer Revival

[tgreese]

You can replace the core. Cut to length. Then you stake the steel end to the core and insert in your sheath. Uses a steel end, unlike the plastic end of your existing cable.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_6151797

When I worked parts counter, I sold these kits rather regularly. Customers seemed happy.

[devildog80]

I did see that on my research for cut to length kits, but already ordered the replacement.
Probably do just that is clean the existing sheath out, then re-grease the new inside cable back into the existing sheath.
Need to get a .22 cal bore cleaning kit now.
Will report how that works out.
Thanks for the suggestion

EDIT - Then again the 173 inch kit for same money could replace several cables in the Jeep fleet here, instead of just one.

[tgreese]

IIRC it only has one squared-off end, and one staked end. You can't make another cable from the left-over.

Presumably you could stake a new end onto the existing cable, if you could buy just the staked end and the staking tool. Replace the plastic thingie. Not available separately AFAIK. Usually these cables gum up or jam in the middle and break, and the original cable is not reusable.

[devildog80]

Not looking to use the old cable, just thought I would try using the existing sheath and see how the new inner cable would fit.
If not, will replace the whole thing new, depending on how long the end at speedo is and if it will engage where the plastic piece was.

[devildog80]

New speedo cable arrived over the weekend, but we went camping, so will wait till this weekend for early morning temps in the 90's.
AZ summer finally arrived so evening outside work can wait.
Opposite of you who live in snow or rain areas, we do the same here in the heat.

[devildog80]

Update

Installed new upper speedo cable, and when checking against my phone app, at 30 on truck, reads about 27 on app.
At 47 truck, reads 47 on app, so might show a little fast over this speed.
Need to get transmission cleaned & serviced before getting out on interstate to see what faster speeds will match up with between truck & app.

Also installed new headlight floor dimmer switch.

Chased parasitic draw again........still eluding me :/

[devildog80]

New 14ga fuse link arrived today, so will be fixing my alternator connections this weekend, after replacing the old AMP meter with new Volt gauge months back.

[devildog80]

So........rewired the alternator to charge direct to the battery, as suggested, but found the alternator was not charging with modified wiring suggested.

Only way to get alternator to charge was to run it back on the old AMP gauge red wire, feeding through to yellow wire from AMP gauge behind the cluster, and that back to solenoid.

Also had to set plug in on alternator to hot post of alternator, and other side up to solenoid.

Only way alternator would charge.....and still have parasitic draw we think is inside the cab somewhere.

Its a Jeep!

[tgreese]

You're missing something, and your description does not make sense to me. You need the case to be grounded, the red wire going to the battery, and the two wires to the plug connected.

Did you splice the yellow and red wires together in the dash?

How do you know the alternator is not charging?

It does not matter how the red wire gets to the battery. It can go through the ammeter, or go to the battery directly. Won't change anything. Does not affect how the alternator charges.

AlternatorWiring1979Jeep.png

You can see the large red wire here, circuit 12 that's 10 gauge. The two additional wires are red, and brown which is a resistance wire. These terminals are labeled "1" and "2" - look at the section in the TSM about the charging system. It shows a picture with "battery terminal", "1" and "2".

The red wire is "2" and senses the battery voltage. Call this the "sense wire." It connects to the battery at the solenoid post. On Jeeps that come with a voltmeter, it loops right back to the big red wire and is only a few inches long. It senses the battery voltage. You need it to be connected to the battery.

"1" is the small brown wire comes from the ignition switch. Call this the "exciter wire." It's a nichrome resistance wire, like the wire elements in a toaster oven. That connection is needed to make the alternator start charging.

The alternator needs electrical current to make more current. When operating, it takes part of the current that it produces and feeds that back to its field coils (the rotating part of the alternator). More current it feeds back, the higher a voltage it produces.

The voltage regulator senses the battery voltage via the small red sense wire and controls the current fed back to the field. The wire from the ignition switch provides a trickle of electricity to bootstrap the alternator.

Usually if you spin the alternator fast enough, the residual magnetism in the laminations (lams, steel plates that the alternator coils are wound around) will make enough current to bootstrap the alternator. But it has to spin fast, and there's no guarantee.

The nichrome wire has enough resistance so that the alternator gets the trickle it needs to bootstrap, but the trickle is small enough to stop backfeed into the ignition switch and power the ignition when the engine is shut off.

[tgreese]

If you have the exciter wire connected to a constant source of voltage, that may be your drain. Normally that is connected to the ignition switch, and shuts off when you shut down. Likely you are powering the voltage regulator constantly if you connect the exciter wire anywhere else.

Note this wire needs a bottleneck between the ignition switch and the alternator. When the alternator is turning and charging, the voltage at the exciter wire terminal is held at the full charging voltage, ca 14V. Without the bottleneck (ie a plain copper wire connection), the alternator will back-feed into the ignition switch and the engine will not shut off. You'll have to pull the coil wire to shut down.

The bottleneck is a resistance wire originally. A diode, or an incandescent bulb, will also work.

A diode would be oriented so the band is on the alternator side of the wire. This will allow current to flow from the switch to the exciter wire terminal, but block current toward the switch. This will block back-feeding.

The incandescent bulb would act as an ALT light, lighting up when the alternator is not charging, and turning off when the charging voltage equals the voltage at the switch. You can find diagrams online where the ALT light is wired to the exciter wire terminal. This acts like the resistance wire, providing the bootstrap current from the ignition switch so that the alternator will start charging, but the reverse current is not enough to power the ignition.

Suggest you read these two posts from top to bottom, and ask questions about what you don't understand. I compose and type my thoughts quickly, and can put a lot on the page when it's something I'm familiar with. I think all the above content is good here, and will help you.

[devildog80]

Lots of generic connections, as still switching wires around, so easier to access until wiring is right.
I think it will help too, as your diagram did, which we wired and then had no power to ignition.
I will read/reread the above information, and sending it to Mongo228 who is helping me with getting the truck going, and see if we can remedy the issue.

This is how it is wired so it "works".....but as you say, still has parasitic bleed which yes...heats up alternator with just battery cables connected and truck not running or started. Start it up and alternator charges.

20230709_140856 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

20230709_140710 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

Yes the yellow and red wires that went to the old AMP gauge are connected behind cluster in the dash, and original path had red wire feeding from the alternator to AMP gauge, and yellow wire fed from AMP gauge to + side of solenoid.
Alternator little plug in has #2 connected with yellow wire

But for whatever reason, the truck had no current to ignition with the yellow wire direct to + side of solenoid from POS battery connection, 10ga red alternator wire connected direct to + side of solenoid with 14ga fused link, and little #1 & 2 plug in looped.

20221218_120238 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

20221218_120306 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

52120042981_28525cbb76_o by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

[devildog80]

Wiring diagram above was our guide, and what is wired as now.....with exception of Volt gauge which has positive from keyed strip in engine compartment, and negative strip ground inside cab on kickboard which grounds direct to battery.

20230107_152249 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

20221127_142915 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

[tgreese]

... Also had to set plug in on alternator to hot post of alternator, and other side up to solenoid. ...

I interpret this as the exciter wire is connected to the battery side of the solenoid, and the sense wire is connected to the battery terminal of the alternator. This is wrong.

The exciter wire must be switched. You can connect it to the small "I" terminal on the solenoid and that should work. Measure the exciter wire with your multimeter. If it's hot when the switch is off, it's wrong.

[devildog80]

Ok
So....my understanding was the 14ga fused link was to connect between 10ga alternator charge wire, but as you say should it be connected with the exciter wire from plug in to "I" terminal on solenoid?
I am referring to the schematic, and what you are saying.
Or the exciter wire connected direct to the "I" terminal?

[tgreese]

No no no.

Your alternator was wired wrong from the start. Has nothing to do with moving the 10 ga wire or the fusible link.

Has nothing to do with the "I" or "S" terminal on the solenoid. That's skipping way ahead. You need to understand how the alternator is wired before you think about that.

The alternator has four connections.

1) Ground through the case.
2) Battery terminal. This is the 10 ga wire that charges the battery. This is where your fusible link goes.
3) Sense wire. This is terminal 2 on the alternator. You have that connected to the battery terminal, and that's ok without the ammeter.

TSMAlternatorTerminals.png

4) Excite wire. This is terminal 1, and appears to be your problem.

You must not connect the excite wire to constant power. It has to be switched with the ignition. Switched on when the key is on, switched off when the key is off. With it connected as you show, the alternator will charge, but the voltage regulator is ON ALL THE TIME. That's why you have a drain and that's why your alternator is hot. You must turn the excite wire off when the ignition is off. Read above, especially the part about the bottleneck.

It is necessary that the excite wire be switched, but that is not sufficient. It also has to be connected via one of the three types of bottlenecks that I describe above. The original bottleneck is the 15 ohm resistance wire shown in your diagram. If it's still there, put it back. If it's gone, pick a replacement from the three choices I give above: resistor or resistance wire, diode, or incandescent light bulb.

[devildog80]

That helps break it down, so my brain can wrap around the routing of what goes where, and makes the previous explanation make more sense.

Thank you for the assist, and sure this will be fixed soon.

[devildog80]

Ok, negative cable off, key off and out of ignition, checked voltage across alternator hot wire, and both #1 exciter (jumpered to ignition "on" strip) & #2 sensor wire (not connected to anything) on plug in.
All read 12.5 volts with meter negative on battery ground and positive meter doing the testing.
Voltage bleed is 7.5 volts.....holy moly!

Connecting the 10ga red wire off alternator to + solenoid post with yellow wire included, alternator will not charge but truck will run.

Jumped #1 exciter over to ignition "on" strip, and #2 sensor to post on alternator, without light in the exciter wire jumper, truck continued to run after key shut off.
Exciter wire jumped to ignition "on" strip, with "indicator light" connected, when truck starts, light comes on, and truck will shut off with key and light goes off.


Red wire that went to AMP meter MUST be connected off alternator going back to the dash, connected to yellow wire behind cluster, and yellow back to + side of solenoid, in order to show volts charging. If not, then gauge and meter test at alternator or battery shows discharge when engine running.

New Volt gauge is grounded to grounding strip in floorboard of cab, that direct connect to battery ground.
+ side connected direct through firewall to ignition "on" strip.

Believe I have a good alternator as it does charge.....just the wonky wiring to run down trying to figure out why it has to route through the cab to show charging.

Maybe I will try grounding alternator to battery instead of through mounts to engine, which is direct ground to battery.

Still floundering here......but making diagnostic progress!

[devildog80]

I know.....what is written above "should" be the answer, but not working.

Putting it back to where alternator will charge, and go from there.

[tgreese]

If this is too difficult for you to figure out, you could buy a one-wire 10SI alternator. Then you'd have one wire from the alternator to the battery. If it did not charge, you could take it up with the seller.

Or hire someone to sort it out.

I've gone about as far as I can with this problem. I don't have anything more to offer.

[devildog80]

Not to difficult, truck just does not work when everything was wired the way you laid it out.
Albeit correct, but on this truck it is working otherwise.

I have it down to the excite wire tied into the "I" post, it will charge, but then need to pull the connector apart to kill it.
I add the light so it will shut off with the key, then it won't charge, but starts and shuts off with the key.
I appreciate all you have shared and followed it to the letter, but again, this truck does not seem to work electrically like it should.
Not sure what was done before it came to me, or what might have got mucked up by Mother Nature having her way with it for 18 years in the AZ desert, but this is what I have to work with.
I might just need to get it to a point where it will function like it should off the key, which we did several months back, and get a kill switch for the parasitic bleed. Sometimes that is all we can do without "hiring someone" (never will happen) as this is why I have these old rigs here.....to work on them myself.
Not a critical vehicle for a DD, but helps me keep sane on my time, and gratification to "fix" the problems.

I appreciate all you have done to assist. I really do, and I have learned from it. Hope you can appreciate that, as I am grateful for you taking the time sharing your knowledge.

Will keep posting as I trudge through "The Mire of the Wagoneer"