Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

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Tad
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by Tad »

Here's my GMD60 backed by a Dodge 208 behind a TH400.

Image

As you can see there is a slight compound angle there already.
About 1" at the most over the entire distance.
I never noticed that before and it's certainly not an issue as I do drive and wheel this.
What I did notice (it's not the best pic but I didn't want to lie in the dirt) was that if it was another 1.5" over I would be into the corner of the tranny pan.
IIRC that has been a issue for some folks running a D300 behind a 727 but that might be from the smaller jeep folks.

Just another random thought but I thought I would add it to the collective here.
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mineral co
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by mineral co »

Hey Tad, since we're on the subject, is the spring perch part of the diff housing on the GM D60?

I did some more measuring today. I didn't get under the truck (the snow melt is making a sloppy mess today), but the distance from the center of the pinion to the edge of the Ford 3" spring is darn near identical to the value for the D44 and 2.5" spring on the my truck. A while back I had said the dimensions were with a half-inch of each other, but they are much closer than that. I need to sneak out under my neighbor's '79 F-350 and see if that value is the same on that axle as well.
'84 GW, returning to service.
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by Tad »

Yes, it's part of the housing and uses two studs (in my case 3/4" bolts) that go into the housing.
So no u-bolt on that inside anchor point.
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by Tad »

On a side thought:
Since you are thinking about cutting down the tube side and shortening the inner shaft (I read the part about finding an off the shelf shaft that would work), I wonder if the later Ford D60 inner shafts neck down (get smaller) like the pre-80 GM versions do.
I have the newer versions that do not so they could be simply cut to length and re-splined, ant decent machine shop can do that, except on the neck down versions.
That would make if find a spare/cut/re-spline rather simple I would hope.
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by Tad »

Sorry for poor spelling, I suck on a phone .
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mineral co
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by mineral co »

And I have to consider brakes.

And that means I have to consider knuckles.

I suppose that if I switched to 16" wheels I could just run the two-piston Ford brakes that are already on the axle. But I just got those new 31x10.5x15 tires! It's probably just as well that the budget got thin before I bought the AE aluminum 15x8 wheels to put the tires on.

I want aluminum wheels, so it seems that you have no choice but to go to a 16" wheel as nobody makes (as far as I know) a 15" 8-lug aluminum wheel that comes even close to clearing the caliper, unless you grind the caliper down to the point of absurdity.

On one hand, I like the idea of keeping the Ford knuckles with their shorter steering arms and spindles. On the other hand, I would like to standardize on Chevy brakes but then you have to swap to Chevy knuckles in order to clear the caliper, and the Chevy steering arms are longer as is the spindle, and the calipers are quite a bit heavier.

I have seen several places selling after-market caliper brackets to put 3/4 ton Chevy calipers on D60s but, holy smokes! They are carrying ALL the braking force through the two puny caliper mounting bolts! It's like they have NO idea why the factory brackets are built the way they are! I suppose for an off-road-only hay wagon it's up to the hay seed as to what they want to do but I would like some notice as to where they are at so I can be somewhere else.

As best as I can tell, nobody makes a factory style bracket for the smaller calipers, so I guess I'll be staying with the Ford two-piston calipers and going to 16" wheels and tires. According to the D60 Bible (BillaVista), the Ford D60 assy is nealy 50 pounds lighter than the GM D60, so there are other advantages to leaving the front "all Ford". That's a lot of braking power though. The rear brakes may never catch up!

If I've got this screwed up, would somebody be kind enough to let me know?

Thanks,

Chris
'84 GW, returning to service.
360, 727, Selec-Trac 229, TFI, Hydro-Boost, 4" all-spring BDS lift (what a PITA!), BFG/AT 31x10.5x15, 5125 Bilstiens

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mineral co
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by mineral co »

Oops, missed your posts Tad!

I am of the impression that the later Ford axle shafts do not neck down, but that the '78-'79 axle shafts do. I'm doing some more reading in the D60 Bible, and will see if I can confirm.

As you indicate, based on what I've read, it should be fairly straight-forward to modify the stock axle shaft.

[EDIT] The D60 Bible states that all D60 front axle inner shafts, regardless of Chevy, Ford, Dodge, are full size from 1980 on.
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Cecil14
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by Cecil14 »

I certainly wouldn't give up the big brakes. That is one of the top reasons I would look at this swap in the first place. GM brakes blow. The larger ford brakes offer a LOT more braking force. Definitely a benefit.

It's not like parts are going to be hard to come by, they're still one of the big three and likely to be common at pretty much any parts store.


aa
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mineral co
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by mineral co »

I am planning to also do a 1 ton rear axle swap so keeping the brakes balanced may not be a problem. However, with the Hydro-Boost, the truck already stops very well. With monster one ton brakes I may have to put the vacuum booster back on!
'84 GW, returning to service.
360, 727, Selec-Trac 229, TFI, Hydro-Boost, 4" all-spring BDS lift (what a PITA!), BFG/AT 31x10.5x15, 5125 Bilstiens

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mineral co
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by mineral co »

I've sorted out the last major problem with my 4" BDS spring lift by adjusting the front D44's caster back into the specified range by installing six degree shims. Now that I'm confident that there is no black magic at work, I think I'm ready to start tackling the spring issues associated with changing over to the D60 front axle.

Since they are relatively close and have a fairly good reputation, I think I will use Alcan Spring to make the custom springs for the D60. I like the height of the 4" lift on my truck, and want to stay very close to that with the SOA D60. This measures out to being very possible by using some "flat" springs with the axle.

While true to a certain extent on the existing D44, the left spring perch on the late KP D60 is pretty much "fixed" and cannot be rotated to alter the pinion angle as the perch is part of the diff housing. This might be varied slightly with some careful machining but, for all intents, it can't move. If somebody was going to a lot of lift, this could be a real problem but, wanting to stay at about 4", it looks as though the default caster/pinion angle is going to be pretty darn good as it is.

I don't think it would have ever occurred to me just looking at the Jeep with arched springs but, looking at the F-350 donor with flat springs, the axle's caster is primarily specified by the spring mounting points on the truck's frame. The front mount is a few inches higher than the rear (even with the shackle in the front). This makes sense as an easy way for different truck manufacturers to have different caster values without having axles that were completely unique between models of trucks. This information will make it a lot easier to get the custom springs "right" the first time (I hope!).

Also, this clarifies my thinking about doing a shackle reversal as part of the swap. For ride quality, the best method is one that allows the axle to move rearward during compression. Starting with a "flat" spring and a default caster of a few degrees, this can happen only with the spring's solid mount at the rear and the shackle in the front, so that ends that particular debate with myself.

Chris
'84 GW, returning to service.
360, 727, Selec-Trac 229, TFI, Hydro-Boost, 4" all-spring BDS lift (what a PITA!), BFG/AT 31x10.5x15, 5125 Bilstiens

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mineral co
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by mineral co »

And then there's the consideration of the rear axle.

The HP D60 I have has a ratio of 4.10:1, which I think is a good comprimise at this time, so I will also have to change the rear axle ratio from its current 3.31:1. (There is just never a "single" project, is there?)

I had seriously considered putting the donor truck's Sterling rear axle under the Waggy as well, but have come up with justifyable reasons (in my mind, anyway) to use a GM 14 bolt axle.

So, now I have to get two axles ready. Maybe it's due to being in mountain off-road country, but JY prices for a 14 bolt around here ain't anywhere near as cheap as what most people say is a fair price for a 14 bolt (like $650!).

Anyway, I did find one right here in our podunk little town. I just have to get the guy off his butt to pull it out of the truck. The price is acceptable at $150 (it's a SRW axle).

I'm not ordinarily opposed to rear drum brakes but, on a 14 bolt, it's more complicated than just that. Those things are seriously heavy on any 1 ton axle, but especially so on a 14 bolt. They gotta go! The problem, though, is any sort of viable parking/emergency brake on a rear disc conversion. The traditionally used Cadillac calipers are notorious across the 'net as being, well, not great. They'll keep your truck in the driveway at home, and keep you legal during an inspection, but don't ask for too much more.

Having had the experience where I needed a parking brake to hold the truck on a steep dirt grade, I want REAL parking brakes that will hold regardless of any other mechanism that may be (or may not be!) available. And I may have found a disc conversion that will actually work for this.

This conversion uses calipers, rotors, shoes, and brackets from a later AAM generation 14 bolt (factory disc brakes), with a special adaptor to the earlier versions' drum brake bracket on the axle tube. I've studied this enough to think it is good enough to justify getting the parts to do one side of the axle as a "test" case for fitment purposes. The parts will be here this coming Monday, and I'll start a separate build thread for the rear 14 bolt, starting with the disc brake conversion.

Keep your fingers crossed!

Chris
'84 GW, returning to service.
360, 727, Selec-Trac 229, TFI, Hydro-Boost, 4" all-spring BDS lift (what a PITA!), BFG/AT 31x10.5x15, 5125 Bilstiens

will e
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by will e »

Having a Wide Track Cherokee it made sense to watch for a 78/79 Ford Snowfighter. I recently aquired one. A local shop is going to finish it up for me and I am most likely going to have them put together the 14 bolt as well. I will let you know how they like to do disc brake conversions. I also want a functioning parking/emergency brake. If adding that gets pricey there I have the option to add one to my Transfer case.

On the other hand, there isn't anything wrong with drums except like you said, they are heavy. Probably doesn't impact braking too much but the extra unsprung weight might affect both acelleration as well as gas milage. Of course, it would help lower the COG...
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by husker77 »

From my understanding drum brakes actually have more stopping power than disks but they suffer brake fade more.

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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by will e »

In water and mud and such disc brakes are 'self cleaning',they do have that advantage. But there in AZ that isn't much of a problem. Actually, the extra weight that low would help COG. The time I feel most 'tippy' is when a front wheel drops off a ledge.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge

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mineral co
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by mineral co »

There are three different sizes of drum brakes on the original 14 bolt, depending on the anticipated load mostly. I think any of the three would be just fine (even overly so) on the back of an FSJ if braking capability was the only consideration.

But we ain't building a hay wagon here, and ride quality is an issue that's important to me. Getting rid of the drums and going to disk brakes, reportedly, will drop about 50 pounds from the rear axle, even once all the disk brake stuff is installed. Hah, so now it only weighs 500 pounds! It'll ride like a Cadillac, not!

The other consideration with the drums, when from a later ('80s or '90s) trucks is that the drums are so dang big that narrowing the axle can put the drums into the leaf springs, and I want a more narrow axle than any of the stock 14 bolts can go with drum brakes, so discs it is. But I've got to have a fully serviceable parking/emergency brake that will work under all conditions.

The lever action Cadillac calipers are barely adequate (based on a lot of reading) for stock size tires on relatively level ground. The first comment made when discussing a TC brake is that it only works if your rear driveshaft is still intact (banish the thought!), and that by the time you've bought all the parts, plus the flanges, to make it work it gets very expensive, and, at least with the High Angle Driveline unit, it doesn't have much more holding power than the Cadillac calipers. I have read several threads from various boards that some of the serious guys will actually put a second hydraulic caliper at each rear wheel, plumb it with a completely separate system, and operate it with a lever operated MC. All things considered, that doesn't sound very expensive or difficult and would certainly work, and off-the-shelf brackets are available for the second caliper as well. But it has the same concerns as the line lock solution in that any sort of miniscule bypassing leak in the system will eventually allow it to "let go". Great for short intervals, a little less so for long duration use.

And the truth is that I don't know for sure how good the stock GM parking brake is in a later AAM axle, but I'm comfortable enough with the odds that I'm willing to give it a go. The stock parking brake in my Waggy will hold the truck on the steepest hill I'm likely to try, and that is with the trans in neutral, not park. If the later AAM parking brake can duplicate that feat, I think I'll be happy. Finding mechanical details on the later AAM axle is anything but easy, so I don't know what the diameter of that brake is, but I expect it's probably about eight inches in diameter. The brakes on the Waggy are eleven inches in diameter. I'm hoping for a lot of "mechanical advantage".

I won't have a functional axle to test for some time yet, but parts are supposed to start showing up in a few days.

On a side note, nobody I called even had any early dually hubs available, regardless of price! Axles go "complete", or not at all. I had to resort to ebay to get one :| , but it's on its way too.

Chris
'84 GW, returning to service.
360, 727, Selec-Trac 229, TFI, Hydro-Boost, 4" all-spring BDS lift (what a PITA!), BFG/AT 31x10.5x15, 5125 Bilstiens

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mineral co
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by mineral co »

will e, are you planning to run the HP D44 "full width", or trim it?

Personally, I'm not too worried about "tipping it". I'll run out of nerve long before it gets to that point! :o

(But it's like a lot of things, I suppose. I didn't plan to get in what ever situation, but I found myself there none-the-less!)
'84 GW, returning to service.
360, 727, Selec-Trac 229, TFI, Hydro-Boost, 4" all-spring BDS lift (what a PITA!), BFG/AT 31x10.5x15, 5125 Bilstiens

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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by will e »

Tad, are you missing your inspection cover?

Chris, I will be running a d60 HP up front, not a D44. My initial discussion with the Fab guy here in AZ (Andrew at LetZRoll) included disc brakes on a 14 bolt. I had mentioned an CL ad where a guy was selling a d60 (pass drop) and 14 bolt set. The seller didn't want to break up the set. The 14 bolt was a cucv with 4.56 gears, detroit and disc brakes. Andrew mentioned that a lot of disc brake conversions were 'crap' so it was hard for him to know if I should try to pick it up. (The gears are correct for me and I do want a locking rear).

We didn't get into details on the differences in the kits and such but when we do, I will let you know. For me if it is a difference between some weight and not having a reliable parking/emergency brake, then Drums here I come!

Tad, you have disc brakes on you 14 bolt and 37 inch tires. What is your setup and experience in opration?
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by Tad »

Tad, are you missing your inspection cover?
Not really, I have to fab one.
Stock one will not work properly between the Caddy BB and the nailhead TH400.
Tad, you have disc brakes on you 14 bolt and 37 inch tires. What is your setup and experience in opration?
Sorry, I have factory drums in back.
Are they heavy and huge? Yes, but they stop just fine with the HB.
I suppose if I ever wear them out I might consider the disc swap to save weight.
A collection of 1966 to 1986 parts.
Self Inflicted Flesh Wound
Caddy425/TH400/Atlas 4spd/14B/D60/locked front and rear/Hydroassist/39.5 Irocks
(Join date = Friday the 13th)

My Stuff:
http://www.ttsfabworks.com/
Tech Stuff:
IFSJA WMS Project

will e
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Re: Dana 60 HP king pin "wide spring"

Post by will e »

I thought when I looked underneath yours last weekend I saw disc brakes. Hopefully its that my memory is poor and not my inability to tell the difference. ;)
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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