AMC 327 / Warner T85 Clutch Assembly

[Harry Dawg]

Hey Y'all.
Hope everyone is doing well.

I have come here seeking some wisdom from my trusted colleagues, so please chime in if you have any input.

Quick back story- I rebuilt the motor in my Jeep Gladiator, and while I had it out I replaced the clutch.

Got everything put back together and go to start it up, and the clutch pedal goes to the floor.... Won't engage the clutch. So I'm like, WTH?!

I pulled the inspection cover off, and the release bearing is barely making contact with the pressure plate levers.

Come to find out, the pressure plate included in the clutch kit is a good 1" - 1-1/2" shorter than the factory one.

So I go back to my RockAuto order, and all of the product specs are surrounding the clutch itself (which fit perfectly, as did release bearing). There is no mention of the pressure plate dimensions. Additionally, the rest of the product info matches my vehicle application.

I naively assumed RockAuto shipped me the correct parts because of this, although some might make the argument that I should have measured the new part.

So, before I go and send a message to RockAuto and blow my cover - what are y'all's thoughts?

I think they are going to give me grief because it wasn't installed at a shop. However, I do have an ASE certification, which is unfortunately expired.

They might also say I should have measured, but I feel as though their database should have been accurate.

If they would agree to cover labor at a shop to re-do the job and send the correct part, this would be acceptable.

Does that seem reasonable? I don't want to spend another weekend breaking my back pulling the motor/transmission out, so that's why I want them to cover shop labor.

I also already messaged the clutch manufacturer (MPact) - No response after 3 or so days.

What's my next move?

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[Srdayflyer]

well the first thing i always do is a side by side line up the new (ordered/purchased)parts with the old (removed) parts to match them up, based on the pictures posted you probably will have to eat the cost of the pressure plate , i have stopped buying certain parts from rockauto 1 being clutch parts, as e newly replaced throwout bearing failed at just under 5,000 miles, you reall dont have but 1 potion and that is pull the pressure plate assy. and install the correct one.

[Harry Dawg]

Thanks for the reply Srdayflyer.
That's seems to be the consensus with my buddies as well.
If I hadn't installed the engine already, it wouldn't be such an issue.
Now I'm looking at having to pull the transmission, as it will be slightly easier than the engine.
I'm gonna call M-Pact tomorrow and see what they say about it.

[Yeller]

I’d reach out to rockauto as well. Just be prepared for the more than likely response you don’t want to hear. We’ve all been there before with parts, it sucks. Set your expectations low, but ask for everything you want and see what happens. You know how to word things to get the right response out of people, I’ve watched it

[Harry Dawg]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Yeller.

After sleeping on it for the night, I have come to terms with the fact that I'll have to re-do the job.

Lesson learned...don't trust everything you buy on the internet. Lol

Hopefully I can at least get the clutch kit refunded. I'll keep y'all posted.

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[tgreese]

I feel for you, but I think you have come to the right conclusion. I would expect RockAuto to take the parts back; it seems impossible that they would cover any labor costs to remedy the error. Same with MPact. Typically these places will only be liable for the cost of the parts - you are doing the look-up and installation, and they make that your responsibility.

Looking at the Jeep parts catalog from the Tom Collins site, there is a unique part number 3173189 for the cover in all 327 applications. No other Jeeps use this part number. MPact offers this part to cover a wide range of Jeep applications, and I would consider it suspicious to unlikely this part will match the OEM cover.

At this point I could take one of several paths. I could order the parts from RockAuto, and inspect for compatibility. RockAuto should refund and pay return shipping if it's the wrong part (they have for me in similar situations).

I could ask my local olde tyme auto parts store to order in the parts and inspect on their counter. Or ask them if they have a listing for another supposedly compatible part, and order it. If you are a good customer, they should do that for you. If they look it up, they should take it back no question. Again, labor is up to you.

Possible you could look up a clutch kit from an AMC car. I'd go to maybe a '65 Marlin with a 327 and see what's there. Also possible you could order the individual parts for a car and get the right parts. Search and posting on the AMC forum may help.

Finally you could get the cover rebuilt locally (depending on location, or maybe check for rebuilders in Hemming's?) or simply reuse the original cover with a new disk. Not unheard of, if the car runs and drives now and the cover is not severely blued/marked or checked.

Hope you don't have too much trouble - you could pull the transmission and transfer case this time. It's close to a toss-up which is easier, typically. I have a HF transmission jack and have had the transmission out of my J20. Not terrible, except for how many dozen times you need to get down and up from the floor. Likely easier if you have a helper.

[tgreese]

Also, I'd point out it's the finger height that's important, not the overall height of the cover. If the fingers are lower, this could possibly be accommodated by a longer sleeve on the throwout bearing. You may need to mix and match until you get a combination of parts that works like the originals.

[Stuka]

I have had to return parts to rock auto, and in my experience, they have been pretty decent to work with.

However, I have also learned to by clutch parts from somebody that specializes in clutches. There are just soooo many variances and versions of parts. They will likely cost more, but can be worth it.

[Harry Dawg]

Since we are moving into more technical chat, I updated the title of this thread.

I pulled the transmission out last night. Took me about 5 hours (1 of those was just fiddling around getting the starter off, and another hour making sure I wasn't overlooking a linkage / Z-bar adjustment before pulling trans)

The pressure plates have the same lever height on the bench (2.5" ish from lever to work table), but when I install the new pressure plate it's almost like it "loads up" or something.

As the flywheel bolts get torqued down, the pressure plate levers move away from the release bearing (towards the motor) I did notice that the lever adjustment bolts where in a slightly different position, but it looks like they were peened from the factory so they are non-adjustable at this point.

It seems to me that the difference is installed lever height. The factory pressure plate doesn't load up, where as the new one comes under tension ( so much so that the lock washers broke in half as I was taking it off)

I can run the old pressure plate, but the mating surface on the backside has some ridges / warping, and doesn't look the best.

[tgreese]

With the cover turned over, what's the level of the friction surface compared with the flywheel surface? That needs to be unchanged too. If the friction surface is too high (by design or error), that will compress the springs and lower the lever height. My understanding - with normal wear, the cover springs get soft, and the friction surface gets damaged, but the rest of the cover should not wear much.

The levers move back with the thicker friction material of the new disk. If the parts are right, you should be able to adjust for that. My understanding you're finding there's too much gap to adjust for now. This seems like a different geometry, and the new part should have the same geometry.

A clutch rebuilder can refurbish your cover. Or, if you are friendly with your local parts store, they can order some other maker's parts to compare to what you have.

A 327/T-85 in a J-truck ranks pretty high on the oddball spectrum. The aftermarket sellers just regurgitate what they read in the Hollander Guide, I presume, correct or not. The T-85/T-89 was used in a lot of cars, maybe Rambler/AMC too? https://www.hemmings.com/stories/warner ... smissions/ - seems likely the AMC cars with the 287/327 and T-85 use the same parts. An AMC parts specialist may be able to help you. Example - https://osc2.ramblerparts.com/index.php - there are others. I'd give them the Jeep PN I cited above. 317xxxx conforms to AMC part numbers.

[Harry Dawg]

Good news on the transmission snafu.

I inspected the transmission and it appears that there was about a 1/16" of play between the pivot ball and the fork.

I removed the ball stud and shimmed it with a couple of washers, and was able to get approximately .82" more travel from this adjustment. This should get me where I need to be.

This came at the recommendation of Randy at Rabco, so I am very thankful for his expertise and dedication to customer support.

After talking it over with him, the 1" lever height from clutch to lever is within spec. The 2" raised height was a result of a worn clutch disk and springs, as mentioned by Tgreese.

The prognosis was that the new clutch revealed all of the other worn points, which must also be addressed when doing an overhaul on the system.

I feel as though I should offer Rabco / M-Pact and RockAuto a public apology, as they delivered exactly what they were supposed to. It was my own lack of experience and understanding of clutch components that led to this fiasco.

Lessons learned! Hopefully I can get this puppy reinstalled this weekend.

Thanks to everyone who commented here, especially Tgreese for his thorough responses.

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[Yeller]

Good to see vendors still helping, providing service and helping you learn, which in turn helps us all learn.

Personally I’ve never installed one that didn’t have all of the new parts available so it’s a good reminder.

[Srdayflyer]

a couple of tips, 1 clean up the splines with emery cloth and verify the clutch slides easily, , also polish up the input shaft pilot pin , and by all means replace the pilot pin bushing if you havent already done so as if the input shaft wobbles due to an out of round bushing you'll trash the trans bearings, JMO

[44bz]

I hope the shimming isn't a problem for you in the future. I did a clutch job on a CJ5 recently - the problem was that the pivot ball sheared off. It had a stack of washers spacing it out and the ball snapped off in front of the washers. Anything 327 is hard to come by anymore, if not impossible. When I did the clutch for mine (327/T18/D20) I had a heck of a time finding the correct spring for the clutch fork. A lot of trial and error.

[Harry Dawg]

Wow! The ghost of @44bz returns!

I didn't know if you were still around. Hope everything is going well.

Do you still have the Gladiator? How's that old 327 running? I just finished rebuilding the top end on mine.

The pivot ball on the T-85 is a 2 piece design. A cupped stud, with a separate ball. I've seen both the GM style pivot pin, and the 2 piece design listed for a CJ.

I had a good bit of thread, so I feel confident in the sturdiness of the cupped stud with the shim. Only time will tell I suppose.

As far as the fork return spring, the original was rusted through and broke off when I went to remove the release bearing and collar. I ordered one for a 72-75 CJ and it worked perfect!

@Srdayflyer - Great feedback. I will be sure to clean up the input shaft and splines.

I almost shot myself in the foot again though, as I was about to remove the old pilot bushing and thought "I better measure the new one"

Sure enough, the new bushing is .66" ID and the input shaft is .77" diameter! Good thing I checked.

I guess I'll just keep the old one, for no other reason than a new one is probably unobtainable. I checked RockAuto and there are none listed.

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[tgreese]

The parts book shows the following for the 327 and 350 trucks -

earlyClutchPivot.png

And this for the '73-on -

73onClutchPivot.png

My curious nature led me to compare the part numbers from the listings to the aftermarket offerings (Crown, https://www.crownautomotive.net/Clutch- ... 73474.html). Crown shows the separate ball-type for nearly everything Jeep. However, looking at the '65-73 parts book, their part number only matches the 232-327 trucks. The extensive coverage Crown claims might actually be an AMC 3184913, which appears both in the early book and the '74-80 book for all the gen 3 AMC powered Jeeps. Seems to no longer be a service part in the 81J book, though the earlier listing should still be valid. The 350 trucks have a Jeep PN 948092 - the only non-AMC number.

I suspected that the OP Harry needs the AMC 3173474 but actually has the later AMC 3184913 which is too short. I can't find enough info online to decide this with any certainty. I'd guess the Crown part works for all those later applications, but it's certainly not right for the 350 trucks, and where did they get that part number?

Likely you'd have to find some NOS parts for examples to know for certain.