Belt Routing for a '71

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kjandb
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Belt Routing for a '71

Post by kjandb »

I'm getting a lot of belt noise and trying to see if my belts are routed correctly. I looked through the parts book and TSM and didn't see any early wagoneer diagrams - am I missing that somewhere?

My power steering belt looks way off - very cockeyed. Almost as if it should be on the more forward pully instead of the back one? Hopefully the picture helps explain it. Or maybe I just need to move the pully more forward somehow?
ImageImageImage
Last edited by kjandb on Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho

JWestfall
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by JWestfall »

My 71 with a 360 is routed differently, but that's just how it was when I got it, not necessarily how it is supposed to be. But on mine the PS pump and A/C are on one big belt and the alternator and water pump on another belt. (I think. I will look under the hood later to confirm). I had squeel and other issues until I upgraded the P/S pump from the Eaton to the Saginaw. Way easier to tighten the P/S pump belt with the Saginaw.
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tgreese
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by tgreese »

I suspect you have the wrong water pump. There is a pre-73 V8 water pump, and many listings incorrectly show the newer style with a different hub height.

https://theamcforum.com/forum/6872-v8-c ... 98457.html

https://theamcforum.com/forum/1970-360- ... 03730.html
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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tgreese
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by tgreese »

If you have a dual groove pulley on the air conditioning, I'm sure you need two belts across it. I would expect one belt to be tightened by the alternator and the other to be tightened by the idler pulley. I vaguely recall if the idler pulley is at the top, you need a long belt that goes around the alternator, air conditioning, water pump, and crank pulley. The second belt goes AC, idler pulley, water pump, crank. The third belt goes crank, water pump, power steering.

If this does not line up, I'd guess you have the wrong water pump. The water pump thing is really common on these cars - quality makers like GMB sell the wrong pump for these Jeeps. You can remove the fan and water pump pulley and see the front of the water pump. Then you can recognize the type of pump you have.

This is the right pump:
Image

This is the wrong pump that GMB lists for this application:
GMBpump (565 x 352).jpg
You don't need to measure - the front bearing on the wrong pump is larger than on the right pump. The housing also has ribs to support the front bearing that are missing on the right pump.

Look at the '72 RockAuto listing; it's wrong. At least they give the hub height - likely a CYA for selling the wrong pump. With slightly more honesty, the listings for '71 show no pump available.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/jee ... +pump,2208
(Not the fault of RockAuto - I'm sure they simply copy the listings that the parts makers give them).

I looked at the '72 TSM, but the belt diagram is different from what you have - no idler pulley on top. Possible the Jeep TSM supplement for 1971 shows the correct belt diagram. If you are still struggling with this, I'd suggest you find the Jeep part numbers for the 1971 belts and see if the online listings will provide a length. The lengths may be in the parts book. This will give some additional indication of whether you've got it right.
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Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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tgreese
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by tgreese »

Another comment - I believe the high-mounted idler pulley indicates dealer-installed air conditioning ("American Air," code WAA: 'With American Air'). Shown in the '74-80 parts book, and maybe in the '62-73 book. That's why the diagrams in the '72 TSM do not match your Jeep - they show the belts with factory air. You need the added idler pulley to tension the WAA belt that goes over the dual pulley. Two belts on the AC compressor.

Once you get the alignment straightened out, I expect you will need to measure for the belts you need and fit them that way. I recall we tried to look up belts for WAA in the past by part number, and got nowhere. You can find the part numbers, but they do not match anything available. Suggest you put some rope around the pulleys and measure the length, then buy that belt. Your local parts store should help if you are a regular customer.

Likely your PO did the best they could with the wrong water pump and the wrong belts.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

letank
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by letank »

on the 74 and most Jeep V8 that I have owned, the PS belt is driven from the water pump on the forward groove , the rear groove of the PS pump goes to the Air pump. The air pump becomes noisy on our vintage rigs, it may start to drag a bit... disconnect the air pump belt, only for testing purpose , wink, wink...

interesting fact about the tensioner for the AC belt... it will be tough to find matching belts, aka same serial fabrication numbers, even if the specs are the same the belts have a slight length difference after a few minutes of use, it works!
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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kjandb
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by kjandb »

tgreese you're a damn genius and I owe you a beer.

My water pump is the ribbed version - so the wrong part. Who knows how long it's been like that? By the looks of it for quite a while. I took a closer look at the alternator belt and it's cockeyed too. Ugh, now to YouTube to figure out how to replace a water pump.

Is there a better source to buy the right version or do I order here (920 8001A): https://www.americanpartsdepot.net/waterpumps.htm
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'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho
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tgreese
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by tgreese »

Not a genius - I have some experience in a Jeep dealership parts department, and I read these forums a lot.

I looked at a couple of those AMC parts places, and they both showed the same price. I'd expect they all offer the same part. The water pump is not cheap at $150 today. You could look for the best shipping terms, or pick the place you like.

Water pump replacement is one of those basic automotive mechanic jobs - good to know. If you need help, ask.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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tgreese
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by tgreese »

letank wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:55 pm on the 74 and most Jeep V8 that I have owned, the PS belt is driven from the water pump on the forward groove , the rear groove of the PS pump goes to the Air pump. ...
Long long ago (ca '72?), but I remember the American Air has the idler pulley, and they give you a replacement crank pulley with an additional groove. Possible the new pulley bolts to the outside of the existing pulley. This is a stretch, but I think the existing PS belt stays the same, and you bolt on the pulley and new idler to run the AC compressor. Maybe. Too long ago - these are hints for things you can look for, not gospel.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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kjandb
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by kjandb »

Ya that all checks out. The forward pully on PS is more narrow anyway, no way the other belt goes there. That must be for the air pump that I pulled when I first got it. Im confident the correct water pump will fix everything.

On the ac, any reason why I should even keep that belt? AC doesn't work and I have no intention of trying to fix it in the near future.

This shows my setup:

https://youtu.be/ZgFE0wF7w70?si=oSH_uEnwEEZuosfW

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'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho
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tgreese
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by tgreese »

The unused pulley on the PS pump is for air injection, aka Air Guard (Jeep's name for it) or smog pump. Likely it was unused on a 49-states (ie not California) Wagoneer in 1971. If you have the TSM supplement for 1971, it should show what emissions equipment was used on Jeep vehicles. The '72 book shows air injection on a 360 Wagoneer, but only when equipped with a manual transmission.

Faxon has the supplement - https://www.faxonautoliterature.com/197 ... Supplement - this may be included in the printed/bound/paper copy that BJ's sells. Likely you'd need to have BJ's offering in hand to tell. Faxon also has this - https://www.faxonautoliterature.com/197 ... al-Reprint which explicitly includes the '71 supplement. Maybe that's what BJ's is selling - can't tell from their page.

Regarding the AC belts, that's up to you. If the AC has been idle for a bunch of years, leaving it idle longer should not hurt it. You can drive the alternator and leave off the belts to the AC. The AC adds to the value of the Jeep, and if it were mine and the parts were in good cosmetic condition, I'd try to get it working. In your locale it's not so important, but further south it would be.

BTW your TSM covers water pump removal and installation. Coverage seems thorough for what is a straightforward R&R. Unlikely a video will be specific to a '71 360 Wagoneer.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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kjandb
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by kjandb »

Pump has been ordered and I've read up on installation. Any other "while I'm there" things I should be aware of? I'll prob do new belts, maybe lower rad hose.

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'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho
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tgreese
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by tgreese »

Have you replaced them - belts and hoses - ever?

If you're going to drain the coolant, I would replace it if you don't know its history, or if it's more than a few years since you've replaced. Otherwise reuse is ok. Heater hoses? Fuel hoses? Why the bottom radiator hose and not the top hose? Bypass hose? Thermostat?
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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kjandb
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by kjandb »

Thanks everyone. Got all new hoses and ended up pulling the ac unit (and mounting brackets) and it feels so much more open. Should have done that a while ago. I plugged the hoses in case I ever want to bring it back. Question, anyone know what this little bracket does? It's attached to the PS pump bolt. Not seeing it in the parts book. ImageImageImage

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'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho
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tgreese
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by tgreese »

Looking at the '62-73 book and the '74-80 book in both steering and air conditioning (groups 10 and 13 resp.) Nothing... Seems likely that the mystery part is a spacer added by the PO to try to make the wrong water pump work, but I don't know for sure. I'd set the mystery part aside and not worry about it.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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devildog80
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by devildog80 »

PO probably just used that "U" shaped spacer to align the bracket for power steering pump. In the past I have typically seen those used for starter spacing, to align the starter gear to flywheel on a Chevy engine, but any make vehicle they can be found. Also similar used as a holder for brake lines through frame brackets.
'81 CJ5 Base, 258 I6, MC2100, T176 4 spd, 300 TC, D30 Front NT, 3.31, 2-Piece AMC 20 rear NT, 3.31, 4" high arc spring lift
'84 Grand Wagoneer, 401 V8 (.030 over), Edelbrock clone 1406, 727 auto, Selec-trac NP229, AMC 20 REAR - D44 FRONT - WT 3.31, 4" high arc spring lift
Rather be driving, than waiting to be modified
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backroadin'
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by backroadin' »

Hey - nice wagoneer! Mine is the same color!
One of the biggest lessons I learned working on my jeep is that just because something is there doesn't mean it was originally supposed to be there. I've swapped in junkyard crank pulleys from newer grand wags only to find out they didn't line up with the other stuff on my engine. Who know's what any of the PO's hvae done to our rigs! :)
Sounds like that new water pump solved your issue though.
'73 Wagoneer 4.0 stroker/t176/d300, offy dualport w/ quadrajet

candymancan
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Re: Belt Routing for a '71

Post by candymancan »

My 76 is odd it has 3 grooves on the crank. First back one is the power steering pump water pump and rear crank groove.

2nd groove is the crank, water pump, and Alternator. Alternator has only one pully groove.

3rd is power steering/airpump. Crank, a.c.
But my a.c has two groves.

If you want both powered then you need a longer belt for the 2nd groove mark to run on the a.c as well

Its weird
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)
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