Improving steering stability after lift

[Q8y_drifter]

I've been a member for a number of years now but my last post was quite a few years ago, back when I was in the midst of LS swapping my 91 Grand Wagoneer. Since then I've pretty much finished the swap and have moved to working out some drivability issues I've been having in particular with the steering, hence this post.




About 3 or 4 weeks ago I took my Jeep for it's first shake down test after having been in bits and pieces for so many years. After working out some major driveline vibrations, my next big issue to tackle was very flighty steering. The truck was all over the road. The culprit was apparent the first time I turned the steering wheel to exit the driveway. The wheel would not return to center. So I decided to take it to an alignment center to get my front toe dialed in, steering wheel centered and caster checked.

For reference, the suspension and steering has been completely rebuilt, I currently have:
- Skyjacker 4-inch lift springs all around
- Skyjacker drop pitman arm
- All new Moog tie rods, steering and drag links, upper/lower ball joints, etc
- Fully rebuilt hubs/spindles
- New Borgeson steering shaft
- Fully rebuilt steering column
- New reman Cardone steering box
- No track bars F/R
- New 33x12.5R15 AT tires




And here are the initial alignment results:
Left caster - Positive 1°34' (1.5°)
Right caster - Positive 1°08' (1.1°)




So I went home, did a whole bunch of reading and then ordered up 5° shims from Tom Woods. I went ahead and installed them as soon as I got em in the mail.








I went back for an alignment check today. Old numbers on the left, new numbers on the right.




The caster shims fixed the majority of my steering and handling issues, however I do have a couple issues that still remain:

1. Steering still feels loose/dead between 10 and 2 o'clock. I constantly have to steer within this range when driving straight to keep the steering system "loaded" if that makes sense. It's like there's a disconnect somewhere between the steering wheel and tires when driving straight but goes away when I load the system to take a turn for example.

2. At highway speeds, the steering wanders when I let off the throttle, sometimes hard enough that it almost crosses to the next lane. I haven't braked hard enough to test but I don't recall it wanders the same way when I brake. Is this related to my 1st issue?

My only guess for both problems is I have a bad reman steering box (which seems to be a common enough issue). But I need to be certain that's the case before I order another one. What can I do to verify the cause?

Appreciate any help from the FSJ gurus!

[Stuka]

It sounds like the steering box wasn't adjusted properly when it was rebuilt.

With the engine off, having somebody just wiggle the steering wheel back and forth. While they do that, look at the input and output shafts. I am thinking you are going to notice quite a bit of slop.

Another thing to check, is for steering box deflection. This can become more apparent with a drop pitman arm. This is where the steering box is moving. Typically due to a cracked mount or a crack in the frame. Though this is not common on FSJ's as they have a boxed frame up front.

And I suppose its worth checking all the TRE's while you are at it. Again with somebody wiggling the wheel while you check all four TREs.

Its worth noting that saginaw boxes do have a small dead zone right in the middle. Especially if you are used to driving something with rack and pinion steering.

[CJ7Pilot]

Regarding question #2, do you have a locker in the rear (like a Detroit, or a lunchbox style)?

That will pull hard to the right when you let off the gas, and a little to the left when you add gas.

It sounds like you've pretty well covered your bases with the steering parts.

[Q8y_drifter]

Regarding question #2, do you have a locker in the rear (like a Detroit, or a lunchbox style)?

That will pull hard to the right when you let off the gas, and a little to the left when you add gas.

It sounds like you've pretty well covered your bases with the steering parts.

I have a torsen-style Eaton Truetrac in the rear. I've 3 other vehicles with a truetrac rear and none of em exhibit this issue tho.

You know now that you mention the rear end, I was messing around with the parking brake cables trying to get the brakes to hold. I have a suspicion my left rear shoes might be dragging juuust a hair with the parking brake fully released. Idk if that's enough to cause such an issue. Maybe it's causing the diff to lock up? Either way I need to lift the rear again and check.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

[Q8y_drifter]

It sounds like the steering box wasn't adjusted properly when it was rebuilt.

With the engine off, having somebody just wiggle the steering wheel back and forth. While they do that, look at the input and output shafts. I am thinking you are going to notice quite a bit of slop.

Another thing to check, is for steering box deflection. This can become more apparent with a drop pitman arm. This is where the steering box is moving. Typically due to a cracked mount or a crack in the frame. Though this is not common on FSJ's as they have a boxed frame up front.

And I suppose its worth checking all the TRE's while you are at it. Again with somebody wiggling the wheel while you check all four TREs.

Its worth noting that saginaw boxes do have a small dead zone right in the middle. Especially if you are used to driving something with rack and pinion steering.

My biggest problem now is trying to find me another pair of hands to test and recheck everything. Looks like I'll end up pointing a camera at the steering box while I turn the wheel I have a TT Fabworks steering box brace somewhere in storage. Bought it many moons ago but never got around to installing it.

[will e]

The TT steering brace may not solve your problem but it will avoid future problems.

[rainman]

Steering still feels loose/dead between 10 and 2 o'clock. I constantly have to steer within this range when driving straight to keep the steering system "loaded" if that makes sense. It's like there's a disconnect somewhere between the steering wheel and tires when driving straight but goes away when I load the system to take a turn for example.

My only guess for both problems is I have a bad reman steering box (which seems to be a common enough issue). But I need to be certain that's the case before I order another one. What can I do to verify the cause?

This sounds exactly like my problem right now. Reman Cardone box also. 99% sure its my issue.

When you get past 10 or 2 o'clock, does it "engage" hard and seem to have extra assist (like it's hard to stop before a certain point) until it the steering wheel completes a little past 1/2 a turn? Mine does that.

Another thing to consider, when the wheels are off the ground, is the "dead zone" still there? My steering acts "normal" when the wheels are off the ground which I think is confirming the poor rebuild.

[tgreese]

Adjusting the steering gear seems like quite a precision operation, according to the TSM. Any of the TSMs from this era include the adjustment instructions. Check the '82 TSM at page 2L-32. Adjustment is done on the bench. You'd need an inch-pound beam-type torque wrench, and some way to couple the torque wrench to the input shaft of the steering gear. Might be worthwhile to adjust the gear with extra care yourself, assuming Cardone properly installed needed replacement parts.

[seventynine]

Since this is a reman steering box you shouldn’t have to do this but you never know what you get on some of these remans.

This is an old article written by Michael Baxter from IFSJA on adjusting slop. It might be useful:
https://www.ifsja.org/tech/steering/boxadj.html

[tgreese]

Since this is a reman steering box you shouldn’t have to do this but you never know what you get on some of these remans.

This is an old article written by Michael Baxter from IFSJA on adjusting slop. It might be useful:
https://www.ifsja.org/tech/steering/boxadj.html

I'm sure the author and the above advice is well intentioned, but the article cited uses bad judgement IMO. Read any TSM from this era. It will tell you in bold or italics with the warning set out separately for emphasis: "always adjust the wormshaft bearing preload first; then adjust pitman shaft overcenter drag torque last." The Michael Baxter article says to adjust the top screw, which is the pitman shaft overcenter drag torque in Jeep parlance. Exactly what Jeep warns against.

Too bad Jeep does not add a few more words of explanation, but they expect the TSM reader to follow directions. They are the authority. I would start from the position that Jeep is right, you could damage the gear or make the steering unsafe or both. Seems reasonable that you would adjust the worm end play before adjusting the pinion shaft mesh with the worm.

TSMwarning.png

Page 2L-34 in the '82 TSM, but it's in every TSM that I've seen. I have to conclude that Jeep makes such a strong point of this for good reason.

[rainman]

I swapped out my Cardone reman for a used box i pulled from the junkyard (96 Grand Cherokee) and my steering is awesome now. Verified that my Cardone rebuild was to blame. My guess the OP is the victim of similar questionable rebuild quality.

[tgreese]

Supposedly the newer Saginaw steering gears (like the popular S10/Blazer 4x4 gear and the GC one above) are way more durable than the older stuff, and can be pulled from the wrecking yard and and used without servicing.

Search -
https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Aif ... +gear+box+
https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Afs ... +gear+box+

[Srdayflyer]

based on your pictures i had a question as it looks as if you used the stock pitman arm you should use a drop arm equal to the amount of lift installed i.e. 4" lift 4" drop arm or is i just the angle of the picture. but this dissimilar angle from stock introduces steering issues

[seventynine]

Since this is a reman steering box you shouldn’t have to do this but you never know what you get on some of these remans.

This is an old article written by Michael Baxter from IFSJA on adjusting slop. It might be useful:
https://www.ifsja.org/tech/steering/boxadj.html

I'm sure the author and the above advice is well intentioned, but the article cited uses bad judgement IMO. Read any TSM from this era. It will tell you in bold or italics with the warning set out separately for emphasis: "always adjust the wormshaft bearing preload first; then adjust pitman shaft overcenter drag torque last." The Michael Baxter article says to adjust the top screw, which is the pitman shaft overcenter drag torque in Jeep parlance. Exactly what Jeep warns against.

Too bad Jeep does not add a few more words of explanation, but they expect the TSM reader to follow directions. They are the authority. I would start from the position that Jeep is right, you could damage the gear or make the steering unsafe or both. Seems reasonable that you would adjust the worm end play before adjusting the pinion shaft mesh with the worm.


TSMwarning.png


Page 2L-34 in the '82 TSM, but it's in every TSM that I've seen. I have to conclude that Jeep makes such a strong point of this for good reason.

I’ve done it a few times without issue but that doesn’t really mean anything. Everyone is an expert on the internet;~>

But…the TSM does draw a line that is almost always indisputable and keeps some kind of baseline between truth and anecdotal knowledge.

Tim is surely right on this.

[Q8y_drifter]

Been a while since I worked on the drivability issues as I was working on getting the engine dyno tuned and A/C system up and running.

rainman,
I'm not sure what you mean by extra assist, but yes there is still a dead zone even with the wheels off the ground. I'm glad you fixed your steering issues!

Stuka, tgreese,
Thanks for all your input. I tested my steering box yesterday. I can move my steering wheel between 11 and 1 o'clock and every input on the steering wheel is translated 1:1 all the way to the input shaft of the steering box. There is ZERO slop up until that point. However between the input and output shafts of the steering box, there is no movement whatsoever being translated. The input shaft can rotate between 11 and 1 o'clock and the pitman arm is rock steady. If I move the steering wheel another hour in either direction, the output shaft just starts to move a couple millimeters. This is the point where the steering feels like it's "loading up" while driving. Steering past that range is where slop is gone. There's also no slop in any of the TREs and links FWIW. In any case, I ordered a new Borgeson steering box to replace the Cardone unit I have now. I'm just over this POS box. I have a couple other cars that use the same box, maybe I'll tighten it up and use it there.

Srdayflyer,
That's actually a drop pitman arm I'm using. Speaking of, I initially thought it was a Skyjacker pitman arm but I double checked my order and it's actually a Superlift 1104. I measured the drop on this arm and it's about 3 inches, which is about 2-2.5 inches more than stock.

This brings me to another issue I'm having which I didn't cover and that is bump steer. Caster shims fixed most of my steering issues, now bumper steer and steering slop remain. To fix bump steer, I definitely need either a bigger drop on the pitman arm or switch to crossover steering. The skyjacker lift was closer to 5" all said and done and the Superlift pitman arm is not cutting it. Does anyone know how much drop the Skyjacker JA350 arm provides? That seems to be my only other choice here.

[Stuka]

Stuka, tgreese,
Thanks for all your input. I tested my steering box yesterday. I can move my steering wheel between 11 and 1 o'clock and every input on the steering wheel is translated 1:1 all the way to the input shaft of the steering box. There is ZERO slop up until that point. However between the input and output shafts of the steering box, there is no movement whatsoever being translated. The input shaft can rotate between 11 and 1 o'clock and the pitman arm is rock steady. If I move the steering wheel another hour in either direction, the output shaft just starts to move a couple millimeters. This is the point where the steering feels like it's "loading up" while driving. Steering past that range is where slop is gone. There's also no slop in any of the TREs and links FWIW. In any case, I ordered a new Borgeson steering box to replace the Cardone unit I have now. I'm just over this POS box. I have a couple other cars that use the same box, maybe I'll tighten it up and use it there.

This brings me to another issue I'm having which I didn't cover and that is bump steer. Caster shims fixed most of my steering issues, now bumper steer and steering slop remain. To fix bump steer, I definitely need either a bigger drop on the pitman arm or switch to crossover steering. The skyjacker lift was closer to 5" all said and done and the Superlift pitman arm is not cutting it. Does anyone know how much drop the Skyjacker JA350 arm provides? That seems to be my only other choice here.

I would wait on making any changes for the bump steer as the steering box slop can accentuate that.

The angle on your drag link is pretty minimal. Its not perfect mind you, as there is angle to it. A larger drop pitman arm is not an option. Not only do they not exist, but there would be some unwanted side effects from them, including reduced steering angle, and likely ripping the steering box off the frame due to the added leverage.

I drove my J10 for about 12 years with a 6" lift and a 4" DPA, and never had any bump steer. I also drove without a steering stabilizer (the tab broke off the spring plate, never bother to fix it as it drove fine without it).

When you get the new (hopefully good) steering box in, you may find the bump steer its minimized to the point where it no longer is an issue.