65 Waggy 4bt swap

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Adventure_Wagon88
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

A 1 ton diesel build is not cheap! I’m not trying to speak for Pablo here, but I am doing a very similar build myself and I easily have 10k into mine. I’ve wheeled and dealed a lot along the way to pay for that, but including the $2500 purchase price of the Wagoneer I expect to have close to $17-19k in mine by the time I am pretty well finished. 1 ton drive train is the only way to do a heavy duty diesel swap in a Jeep IMO. I know I didn’t want to be breaking axles and transfer cases and such. Plenty of guys get away with a quick 4BT swap into trucks by mating to the original transmission and leaving everything down stream stock or mostly stock with some upgrades. I didn’t want to have to baby it or have in the back of my mind that a big bump or rough drop off a rock ledge on the trail could mean a snapped axle housing. For me diesel equates to reliability and simplicity and that’s completely negated if the motor is the only strong and reliable component in the drivetrain!
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TheRebel
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by TheRebel »

Adventure_Wagon88 wrote:A 1 ton diesel build is not cheap! I’m not trying to speak for Pablo here, but I am doing a very similar build myself and I easily have 10k into mine. I’ve wheeled and dealed a lot along the way to pay for that, but including the $2500 purchase price of the Wagoneer I expect to have close to $17-19k in mine by the time I am pretty well finished. 1 ton drive train is the only way to do a heavy duty diesel swap in a Jeep IMO. I know I didn’t want to be breaking axles and transfer cases and such. Plenty of guys get away with a quick 4BT swap into trucks by mating to the original transmission and leaving everything down stream stock or mostly stock with some upgrades. I didn’t want to have to baby it or have in the back of my mind that a big bump or rough drop off a rock ledge on the trail could mean a snapped axle housing. For me diesel equates to reliability and simplicity and that’s completely negated if the motor is the only strong and reliable component in the drivetrain!
Thanks. I already have a complete (for now) 1954 Willys Truck, a daily driver that must not be named, and a 66 Gladiator. I guess I’ll plan on stretching this project out over a few years, because the end goal is to have my final daily driver/tow rig be the gladiator. Just trying to decide between the 4bt and 6bt. I know the 4bt doesn’t need as much fabrication as the 6bt, but I’m drawn to the tow cap of the 6bt.


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jaber
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by jaber »

TheRebel wrote:
Adventure_Wagon88 wrote:A 1 ton diesel build is not cheap! I’m not trying to speak for Pablo here, but I am doing a very similar build myself and I easily have 10k into mine. I’ve wheeled and dealed a lot along the way to pay for that, but including the $2500 purchase price of the Wagoneer I expect to have close to $17-19k in mine by the time I am pretty well finished. 1 ton drive train is the only way to do a heavy duty diesel swap in a Jeep IMO. I know I didn’t want to be breaking axles and transfer cases and such. Plenty of guys get away with a quick 4BT swap into trucks by mating to the original transmission and leaving everything down stream stock or mostly stock with some upgrades. I didn’t want to have to baby it or have in the back of my mind that a big bump or rough drop off a rock ledge on the trail could mean a snapped axle housing. For me diesel equates to reliability and simplicity and that’s completely negated if the motor is the only strong and reliable component in the drivetrain!
Thanks. I already have a complete (for now) 1954 Willys Truck, a daily driver that must not be named, and a 66 Gladiator. I guess I’ll plan on stretching this project out over a few years, because the end goal is to have my final daily driver/tow rig be the gladiator. Just trying to decide between the 4bt and 6bt. I know the 4bt doesn’t need as much fabrication as the 6bt, but I’m drawn to the tow cap of the 6bt.


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http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtop ... 4&start=40
If towing, I vote for the 6...
Jeff

'46 cj3a
'51 Willys p/u
'51 Willys Parkway Conversion
'74 CJ5
'75 J-20 Wrecker
'75 J-20 Cummins service truck
'77 J-10 p/u
'79 Cherokee
'88 Grand Wagoneer
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TheRebel
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by TheRebel »

jaber wrote:
TheRebel wrote:
Adventure_Wagon88 wrote:A 1 ton diesel build is not cheap! I’m not trying to speak for Pablo here, but I am doing a very similar build myself and I easily have 10k into mine. I’ve wheeled and dealed a lot along the way to pay for that, but including the $2500 purchase price of the Wagoneer I expect to have close to $17-19k in mine by the time I am pretty well finished. 1 ton drive train is the only way to do a heavy duty diesel swap in a Jeep IMO. I know I didn’t want to be breaking axles and transfer cases and such. Plenty of guys get away with a quick 4BT swap into trucks by mating to the original transmission and leaving everything down stream stock or mostly stock with some upgrades. I didn’t want to have to baby it or have in the back of my mind that a big bump or rough drop off a rock ledge on the trail could mean a snapped axle housing. For me diesel equates to reliability and simplicity and that’s completely negated if the motor is the only strong and reliable component in the drivetrain!
Thanks. I already have a complete (for now) 1954 Willys Truck, a daily driver that must not be named, and a 66 Gladiator. I guess I’ll plan on stretching this project out over a few years, because the end goal is to have my final daily driver/tow rig be the gladiator. Just trying to decide between the 4bt and 6bt. I know the 4bt doesn’t need as much fabrication as the 6bt, but I’m drawn to the tow cap of the 6bt.


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http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtop ... 4&start=40
If towing, I vote for the 6...
How had I not seen your thread before?


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Adventure_Wagon88
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

Not sure, it’s even in the build threads section!
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Pablo
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Pablo »

TheRebel wrote:I think your build is inspiring me to go the same direction with my build. How much do you think you have into the new drivetrain so far? I’m only asking because I’m 20 and want to set realistic goals for myself haha.


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I think Adventure gave some good advice. I will save you all from reading this giant wall of text: Unless you have lots of help and or money and skills, I would just do a small resto/rebuild with a Vortec... many of these diesel builds start, very few finish.

Much of the cost depends on how much time you have to look for stuff and how much you can do yourself. If you have all day to horsetrade on Craigslist and eBay you can get things for less, but either way you are looking at some coin. The little things will KILL you. Remember that and buy in bulk. Buy a whole vehicle instead of an engine, etc. You can always horse-trade parts if you have ones to trade. I either have time or money, but never both-- so the build kinda reflects whichever I had at the time I made a purchase decision. Your's will reflect your realities and they will not be the same, no two are.

Investigate legalities in your neck of the woods. I would not have paid what I did for the '67 had I known what I know about diesel laws. I got the '65 for less anyway and have EPA exemption since it is older than '66. Understand there is NO WAY this build is going to happen (properly) cheaper than a junkyard Vortec swap. It is going to be much more expensive.

As Adventure said, if you go the diesel route, you are looking at acquiring a full drive-line and axles:

1. Engine ($2700, $500ish for the better high-altitude turbo, $500-600 for various things: KDP, pop testing, advance timing, 4000 RPM valve springs, flipping the oil intake and pan, etc). If you go the 4bt route you will realistically need an overhaul on a used motor. I got lucky, only 75000 on the truck. Keep in mind I still need a new AC/alternator bracket, AC system, and am still having the mechanic modify an exhaust manifold to work with the new turbo. So I am not done yet... Oh, the radiator was $300. The old stock inner cooler is being reused. I still need an alternator as 105 amps is not gonna cut it in the long run, that is more money. The steering pump and motor are installed from a used Ford for a few hundred in parts, a hydroboost brake unit needs to be acquired still, etc.

2. Transmission: I went with a 5-ZF 4x4 manual. Got lucky here and found a totally new ZF5 warranty trans from an old Ford dealer. I think I am in that for 2000 altogether, and that is probably a steal for basically a brand-new trans. Still need a master clutch cylinder.

3. Transfercase: I went heavy and overbuild here, $900 for the 205 rebuilt by ORD. You can rebuild one yourself for much less, but you need to have the time to horse trade for one and then rebuild it. I bought the ORD magnum doubler for it. Not sure what that costs nowdays, but it ain't cheap... a cool $1000 if I remember. You can look it up on Off Road Design's site.

4. Front Axle: Got a Ford Dana 60 off a 78-79 Snowfighter/F350. It was $1350 and I had to ship it. Then I had it rebuilt, trimmed, and ARM locker, cro-mo's and the goodies installed. I think that was another 1600.

5. Rear Axle. Got taken for a ride on a Chevy 14bolt that was off a van. Ate the cost of that, don't remember what it was. Got a better deal with the LetzRoll on a 14bolt of the correct size that had factory disk brakes for $450ish. Don't think they call them 14-bolts anymore (AAM 8.5), but that is what it is. Trimmed its rear too, locked it and put the goodies in it. Probably 1600 altogether.

6. Wheels. Got a "deal" on blem wheels that had some scratches. They would have had scratches anyway if I took them offroad. They were not cheap and I don't remember what I have into them, but it is not insignificant. Still need lug-nuts and good ones are not cheap: 5 wheels will probably be $360 for the good McGuards... these little things will kill you. $400 here, $300 there... you can have 10k just in that kinda stuff, realistically.

6. Beefing frame: Have not finished this yet. Got a drop cradle under the motor. Then I am looking to roll cage into the frame. I have been toying with the idea of a partial exo-skeleton for simplicity in design (looks like a roof rack and the a-pillars will be easier to deal with), but I hate exo's. I am using the cage for the majority of my frame strengthening and just adding some bracing in the middle and rear. I have no idea what the final cost will be, but it is certainly lower if you can do quality work yourself. To clear your motor you might need a possible body lift, a drop cradle, or both. More little $$$$ outlays.

7. Fuel tank mods. You want that diesel fuel pump to fit and pump right? More cash $$$.

The cheapest approach is to buy a truck and swap everything in. This is a smart way to go, except for one thing-- the 6bt and larger diesel truck engines are really too much for this thing to wheel with. You can do it, but you have a front heavy high center of gravity vehicle. It is great for towing, or burning rubber on the road-- not so great when it flops over on its side on the first substantial trail obstacle.

The smaller diesel's are more cash and harder to find. The Cummin's 2.8 and larger crate motors are crazy expensive, but if money was no object-- I would have bought one. Don't buy anything made by Vitto Mitori (Fix It Again Tony / Dodge CRD diesels). They are a crap sandwich. Owned one, not recommended for anything but a boat anchor. Also, the Chevy 6.x old motors are dog slow and underpowered unless you build them with a better turbo, still not a great choice in my opinion. Go with the big C, the Duramax/Isuzu, a bullet-proofed Powerstroke, a MB engine-- or really--- just put a gasser in it and be done with it.
Last edited by Pablo on Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • 64 FSJ Wagoneer, under the knife
  • 67 FSJ Wagoneer, peacefully taking a break
  • 94 XJ, long-armed on 33's. Bolt on ghetto fab fantastic
  • 16 BU, wife's snow commuter
Formerly: 06 KJ CRD (Constantly Repair Diesel)
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Pablo
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Pablo »

Double post removed.
Last edited by Pablo on Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Adventure_Wagon88
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65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

Well said my friend! My name is Jon by the way. There are days I wish I had just pooped a LS in mine for sure. You’re spot on about the horse trading and also the little things just adding up. I just bought another $1000 part and estimate I need at least another $2500 in misc just to get the beast moving under his own power. The wall of items (time and $$$) needed beyond that is honestly quite discouraging, but I will muddle through! I absolutely refuse to be one of those diesel projects that started and never finished, or almost worse, that ends up with the last 2/3’s slapped together so I can enjoy it for a few minutes before making it someone else’s problem!

I concur, turbo upgrade for mine was $550. I got my motor for $1400 after some horse trading, and the adapter and flywheel was another $1400. I have $300 in my transmission not including clutch, but it remains to be seen whether the trans will need a rebuild. I’ve got another $1500 in axles, both of which will need lockers and at least one will need re-gearing (they’re not matched). Even once I get past “the wall” of stuff to get it driving legally, there’s still AC, upholstery and carpet, paint, and a bunch of things I don’t even realize that will be needed to make it nice. It’s entirely a labor of love and I fully expect to love it and drive it for as long as I can heft my ass up into the driver seat.
Last edited by Adventure_Wagon88 on Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheRebel
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by TheRebel »

You guys have been very helpful. Since this will be my first “built” truck, I think I’ll go the LS route.


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Adventure_Wagon88
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

TheRebel wrote:You guys have been very helpful. Since this will be my first “built” truck, I think I’ll go the LS route.
Happy to help but somewhat sad to have been the voice of reason on this one. You can always swap again or build another as well after you’ve gained some experience. I’d actually really like my next Wagoneer to have a decent enough 360 or 401 that I could just put a fuel injection kit on it and drive it pretty much stock, I think that would be fantastic. If the motor needed to be replaced and I felt like more of a project, an LS powered one would be a slick ride too for sure.
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TheRebel
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by TheRebel »

Too true. I’m young though and easily get stars in my eyes haha. Good to have people who will inject a dose of reality into my imagination.


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jaber
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by jaber »

Well said guys. I feel I got VERY lucky when I found mine (250k for $3500), and my business runs out of my truck so I had lots of drive to finish it.
I have done the TBI on a fresh 360, it ran awesome for many years. I do believe it ate a cam lobe and has a very strong miss and has been parked for a couple of years now. I think that wagoneer will get an LS type swap next. Hope I can find another deal on a computer donor...
Jeff

'46 cj3a
'51 Willys p/u
'51 Willys Parkway Conversion
'74 CJ5
'75 J-20 Wrecker
'75 J-20 Cummins service truck
'77 J-10 p/u
'79 Cherokee
'88 Grand Wagoneer
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230ohc
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by 230ohc »

How is this 4bt working out?
1964 willys wagoneer
Om617 turbo diesel
Ax15
Dana 300
3.73 dana 27 front
3.73 dana 44 rear
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Pablo
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Pablo »

Well, the project progresses at the pace of a snail. Mainly because I either have time or money... but not both. I will bug the wrench turner and see where we are at (almost hate to know what I owe, but want to get it running).
  • 64 FSJ Wagoneer, under the knife
  • 67 FSJ Wagoneer, peacefully taking a break
  • 94 XJ, long-armed on 33's. Bolt on ghetto fab fantastic
  • 16 BU, wife's snow commuter
Formerly: 06 KJ CRD (Constantly Repair Diesel)
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Pablo
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Pablo »

Time for some updates.

Visited with Randy @ Reliable Diesel, who is the wrench and brains behind the mechanicals. Things are moving again now that we both have made this a higher priority in our lives.

Accomplishments:
  • Steering box is in
  • Hydroboost and brake master is in
  • Clutch is in
  • Fabbed AC compressor mount is in with Sanden compressor
  • Brake lines in
  • Modified Exhaust manifold and HE221 turbo mount is tested.


All parts are off the shelf Ford 1-ton stuff. The fan blade had to be notched to clear the forward mounted steering box, but that is done. It is a little bit tight against the steering box. The radiator mount and CAC mount are in progress, as is the radiator shroud, which has been roughed out and tack welded.
Last edited by Pablo on Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • 64 FSJ Wagoneer, under the knife
  • 67 FSJ Wagoneer, peacefully taking a break
  • 94 XJ, long-armed on 33's. Bolt on ghetto fab fantastic
  • 16 BU, wife's snow commuter
Formerly: 06 KJ CRD (Constantly Repair Diesel)
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Pablo
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Pablo »

Stuff I have hoarded in the past year:
  • ARB twin compressor
  • BJ's body mounts for old Wagooners and some other weather stripping stuff I know I will need
  • Vintage Air Magnum HVAC
  • Extra taillight lenses
  • Various period correct badging
  • Parking heater
  • Hell-roaring battery isolator
Image

I went ahead with an electric air compressor for the lockers and air up duty, which saves us from trying to shoe horn another compressor mount for a used York A/C compressor, which probably would not clear the hood without additional effort. Also, Yorks are not as easy to find nowadays as they once were. I will look at air tanks and bigger manifolds when we get closer to getting finished. The compressor came with switches and solenoids for the air lockers, so I am good there. The compressor is 100% duty rated, so it should suffice for filling fat tires (obviously won't be as fast as a C02 bottle).

We mocked up a Vintage Air Magnum dummy unit and it fits behind the dash, so I am going to go with it. I am also going to make my own controller with an Arduino talking to an Android head unit so that I can control the heat and AC from a flat panel screen (Android head unit) without having to mount physical controls. That will let me claw back some space in the dash for instruments/vents. Worse comes to worse, I have ordered an under the dash controller and will slap it on.

I have two extra sets of taillight lenses (driver and passenger). I am thinking of 3-D scanning these and getting polycarb ones made. They are getting rare and if I damage one (likely) I don't want to have to find another replacement. For some reason you can get NOS for one side, but not the other.

My heap was missing the "Jeep" and 4-wheel drive logos that went on the early year Wag's. I have acquired the missing front badging over the past year (I think, probably need to go through the inventory and make sure I have two of everything).

Image

For camping use I have acquired a cheap diesel parking heater. These either seem to work fine, or have issues right out of the box and then you get a replacement part. The rest of the problems I read in the reviews seem to be user/installer error.

Image
As for batteries, we haven't decided where the batteries will live or what group to use, but there will be two of them and they will be AGM. Probably Odyssey or North Star Group 27 or 49. We may have one up front under the hood and one isolated in the rear. I will tie them when winching or as needed for really cold starts. I talked to Hell roaring and the 4bt should be able to live with one isolator only, the 6bt requires two isolator's due to its current draw and dual battery setup.
Last edited by Pablo on Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Pablo »

I also have a com stack sort of figured out. I will have my HAM by the time this thing is done (if I am not dead before this thing is done). I have hoarded the following:
  • Uniden BCP536HP digital trunking scanner
  • Kenwood TM-281 2 meter
  • President Lincoln 10/12 meter
  • Uniden Bearcat 980 CB
Image
Image

The plan is for whatever I use to live in the glove box and have the glove box cover close over it when it is not in use. I measured 8 inches to the firewall from the glovebox door, the Kenwood will fit as is, but the rest might have to be mounted on their side and angled downward or upward. Edit: That ain't gonna work out as the tubing from the HVAC box will fill that area in. Solution yet to be determined.

I have various handheld FRS/GMRS radios, so I will probably not install a dedicated one yet. Yes, I have a GMRS license.

I have procured a small sound mixer and will have all outputs going through one external amplified speaker, probably behind the stock 4x6 speaker grill location. It doesn't have to play music cleanly, just re-produce voice.
Last edited by Pablo on Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
  • 64 FSJ Wagoneer, under the knife
  • 67 FSJ Wagoneer, peacefully taking a break
  • 94 XJ, long-armed on 33's. Bolt on ghetto fab fantastic
  • 16 BU, wife's snow commuter
Formerly: 06 KJ CRD (Constantly Repair Diesel)
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Yeller
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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Yeller »

Cool build!

Interesting about the battery isolators since 6bt and 4bt use the same starter. I have a 4bt in a backhoe, it always starts fine on a single group 24. This past winter was the first time it wouldn't start cold, wasn't because it wouldn't spin, it just wouldn't light at 0*, plugged in the heater for 20 minutes and it lit right off.
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

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Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Pablo »

Speaking of music, I finished collecting the major sound system parts, most acquired on clearance:
  • 4 Polk 6x9 marine speakers
  • 2 5.25 Polk marine component speakers
  • Polk marine amp 125 watt RMS x 4.
  • Head unit is a Joying 8 inch android unit.
The 6x9's will probably go in the cargo area behind the rear doors as I hate door speakers. Two will face forward and two towards the center/rear.

The 5.25's will go in the front kickpanel area if there is room there, and the front door otherwise.

The 4 way amp will drive the 6x9s. The fronts will have to drive off the head unit. I don't like Polk amps, but this was less than 1/2 the cost of any other 4 or 5 way marine amp with decent power, so I am taking a chance on it.

The Joying head units are surprisingly good. I don't think the Android based Kenwoods/Premiers/etc are worth the money. The old school companies don't really get how to make an Android head unit outside of the audio stuff.

There is no sub for now and probably never will be. I am not sure where I would put it anyway and it would probably rattle more than boom.
Last edited by Pablo on Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • 64 FSJ Wagoneer, under the knife
  • 67 FSJ Wagoneer, peacefully taking a break
  • 94 XJ, long-armed on 33's. Bolt on ghetto fab fantastic
  • 16 BU, wife's snow commuter
Formerly: 06 KJ CRD (Constantly Repair Diesel)
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Pablo
Posts: 208
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:58 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Post by Pablo »

Yeller wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:23 am Cool build!

Interesting about the battery isolators since 6bt and 4bt use the same starter. I have a 4bt in a backhoe, it always starts fine on a single group 24. This past winter was the first time it wouldn't start cold, wasn't because it wouldn't spin, it just wouldn't light at 0*, plugged in the heater for 20 minutes and it lit right off.
Thanks. I am kind of worried about my lack of a heater grid. I guess I will plug it in if it doesn't start. It gets to around 0 Fahrenheit where I am at, but not lower than that.

In a worse case, I can take the output to the parking heater and put it in the airbox, or at least not freeze to death waiting for the tow truck. :lol:
  • 64 FSJ Wagoneer, under the knife
  • 67 FSJ Wagoneer, peacefully taking a break
  • 94 XJ, long-armed on 33's. Bolt on ghetto fab fantastic
  • 16 BU, wife's snow commuter
Formerly: 06 KJ CRD (Constantly Repair Diesel)
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