87 Grand Wagoneer

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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

Had a couple of hours this weekend to try to learn more about my random coolant leak. (Because I've only been able to replicate it one other time, and that's after I topped it off with coolant.) More on that in a minute.

I did, however, take some time to finally hit my parking brake with enough WD40 to finally ungum the locking mechanism that holds the brake pedal in place. It took more than I thought it would, but with a little time and back-and-forth nudging and encouraging, it came loose. Terribly simple thing to fix, and I'm sorry I didn't get to it sooner. Now I feel a lot more confident parking on hills.

I also began exploring a couple of other issues. First: neither of my front doors activates the overhead/dome/courtesy lights when I open them. Rear doors function just fine. I decided to remove the switches in the front door jambs, and here's what they roughly looked like:

Image

I should note that I've taken this photo with the plastic plunger part fully depressed (as it would be when your door is shut). As you can see, the fully depressed plunger pushes the top half of the door switch apart; when the door is open, the switch makes contact with the lower half, and that completes the circuit and allows the lights to activate.

In my case, the switch absolutely has seen better days. I didn't have time to fully clean it up, but I knocked off some of the crud. I was a little wary--both switches seemed a bit fragile--and I'm not sure if there's a replacement for these out there anywhere. Anyway, mixed results: driver side door works intermittently, passenger side still needs more cleaning up. (Interestingly, the driver side switch has two wires, but the passenger side only has one. In both cases, I'm assuming the hex-sided part that screws into the body acts as a ground.)

Also began to assess my power sideview mirror situation. The box seems to be shot (the joystick controller is detached), and I am nowhere near smart enough to figure out how to piece this back together. Is there a good "delete power mirror" / "insert manual mirror" option out there?

Now to the coolant issue.

As best as I can tell, I have a leak somewhere around my thermostat housing/gasket. Both times I've had coolant spill onto the ground, I've found a little puddle on top of my water pump and a little puddle on top of the engine, and it only seems logical that it's coming from somewhere in that area. (In the first instance, I think it belched enough coolant out onto the top of the engine that it dribbled off the back, because the Jeep was parked on a slope, making me think it was the heater core. I am very glad this doesn't seem to be a heater core issue.)

Here's the funny thing, though: like a watched pot that never boils, I cannot seem to make my Jeep burp our antifreeze.

I'm thinking I might replace the gaskets and hoses in that general vicinity, but to be honest, I'm more curious as to why it's leaking there in the first place, but only intermittently. If there's too much coolant and/or pressure in the system, wouldn't it push the overflow into the reserve tank? Mine is all but empty. The radiator cap is fairly new, replaced in January of this year, but I'm wondering if there's an issue with it not venting out to the overflow tank.

The good news is the Jeep is still staying plenty cool while driving, and it even stayed in good shape sitting still with a high idle. So it remains a bit of a mystery and an interesting problem to think about at work.
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX
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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

Ready for something weird?

About a day after I last drove my GW, I noticed another small puddle of coolant on the ground beneath it. As best as I can tell, this leak is happening as the car is cooling off. Is there a big pressure transfer that happens at some point when you park a car? What am I missing? How is this thing only leaking hours after it's been run?
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX
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FLeetFox
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by FLeetFox »

I'll take FSJ questions I know the answer to for 200 Alex. The jamb switches are available. There are a couple styles. The one below is for the late style . Notice the longer silver shoulder near the contact button.

Image[/url]1011202121 by highsiera, on Flickr[/img]

As an aside, if anyone has a part number for the earlier style with no shoulder please let me know.

As far as your coolant issue. if it's at the top, front center of the manifold, it could be a few things. bypass hose, water outlet gasket, top radiator hose. take a picture, even a phone pic of the wet areas next time and post it. No one wants to jump to a conclusion, like a bad freeze plug, cracked head or something.

Fleet Fox
I do things my way, and I pay a high price.... JCM

SJTD
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by SJTD »

When you park the temp of the fluid spikes due to the coolant absorbing heat from the engine without loosing it in the radiator. There would be some flow into the overflow tank but the pressure shouldn't go up since the radiator cap would maintain it at the same pressure it was running.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.
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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

Apologies for leaving out the pictures--I was having a hard time catching it in the act, but I finally saw it in action this weekend.

I think I just had a hose clamp that needed to be tighter than it was. Here's a shot looking at it from over the radiator--this is what it looked like before:

Image

The clamp for the hose that returns back to the radiator started weeping just a bit after I turned off the engine. It took a few more turns with a screwdriver when I gave it a try (I'm always wary of over-tightening things.)

But as you can see, it was putting out a noticeable amount of coolant, which then leaked onto the water pump and on top of the engine.

I didn't drive the GW this weekend (we were getting what's left of Hurricane Delta), but I hope to get it out later this week to see if we've improved upon our situation.
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX
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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

FLeetFox wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:38 pm I'll take FSJ questions I know the answer to for 200 Alex. The jamb switches are available. There are a couple styles. The one below is for the late style . Notice the longer silver shoulder near the contact button.
Fleet--I've found those too, but I didn't know if the shoulder was a dealbreaker. In the pic I posted of my door jamb switch, it doesn't show, but my stock switches don't have that silver shoulder. I was assuming the ones with the shoulders won't work--even though Advanced Auto/AutoZone/etc. show the part as compatible on their websites.
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX
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FLeetFox
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by FLeetFox »

Certainly looks like the big hose is the culprit. Is that a generic hose, or a direct replacement?

I will put up a separate post on the jamb switch tonight, surely someone has been here before.

Fleet Fox
I do things my way, and I pay a high price.... JCM
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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

FLeetFox wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:26 am Certainly looks like the big hose is the culprit. Is that a generic hose, or a direct replacement?
Tis generic. You'll note that it's actually reinforced, like a bottom hose would be. One of those instances of "grabbed what they had" when I was replacing the thermostat.
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX
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FLeetFox
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by FLeetFox »

Hmmm, if it were me, and the tightening of the clamp does not solve it; it would redo the thermostat gasket, maybe even replace the housing with a new one. But see if the few extra turns resolves the current issue.

Fleet Fox
I do things my way, and I pay a high price.... JCM

letank
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by letank »

FLeetFox wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:02 pm Hmmm, if it were me, and the tightening of the clamp does not solve it; it would redo the thermostat gasket, maybe even replace the housing with a new one. But see if the few extra turns resolves the current issue.

Fleet Fox
X2, it was my initial though, paper gaskets are a pain, you can buy some silicone sealant for that thermostat housing, put a bead, hand tight until it squeeze out, wait the recommended time, 2hrs to 12hrs, tighten to specs. Mine has been leak free for over 1 year. The leak messed up the bolt which broke during removal....

Otherwise pressure testing at around7 psi will let you find the exact location of the leak, our system is pressurized to 15psi, so you can go to 10, but usually by 5 psi you will find your leak
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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tgreese
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by tgreese »

Does the hose fit the outlet properly? Suggest it does not if it leaks. Even if "universal," the hose should fit tightly on the thermostat housing. You don't need to tighten the clamp more than your screwdriver or nut driver would provide hand-tight. These joints will seal even with spring clamps. Breeze clamps (geared clamps like shown above) can be tightened way tighter than needed to seal this application.

The flex hoses are only suitable for engine swaps and for shops that don't want to stock the whole line of molded hoses IMO. It's a make-do solution. Also suggest you get the proper molded hose for this application.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/jee ... +hose,2058
Notice that RockAuto classifies flex hoses as "economy" (cheap). Molded hoses are easily available for this application. Both Gates and Dayco are good, and Continental should be too. AC Delco is probably relabeled.

Usual problem with a thermostat housing is trapping the edge of the thermostat between the housing and the base (manifold). This will break an aluminum housing, but iron housings can typically be cranked down without breaking. They will leak badly. Seems unlikely that you installed the thermostat housing correctly and it just leaks slightly.

Also, there exist (or did exist) low quality iron replacement thermostat housings that could have a poor finish on the sealing surface. This could be responsible for a leak if not sealed tightly (requiring sealant on the hose and/or clamp cranked down very tight). OEM parts are typically aluminum or alloy, and have a smooth sealing surface
Tim Reese
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sirrus
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by sirrus »

Exactly the same issue that I had week ago - mystery coolant leaks resulting in puddles on intake. As others have said, it’s thermostat housing or one of hoses attached to it (upper rad or bypass).

I replaced all three of them - new thermostat gasket, new upper rad hose and bypass from gates. All were available from oreilly, and were not that expensive. Put a thin coat of red RTV on a gasket to seal better (felpro gasket, I think it’s paper). Very easy to replace and no leaks so far
Sometimes we reinvent the wheel not to have more wheels but to have more inventors

1988 Grand Wagoneer - AMC 360 with ProFlo4 MPFI, TF727, NP229 FOR SALE
2021 JLU Willys EcoDiesel - new shiny toy
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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

Thank you all for this great input--seriously--especially on where to get the molded hoses.

I did tighten things down (not too badly, still certainly in "hand tight" range here) and drove it a good 45 minutes yesterday. No leaks so far, but more testing is warranted.
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX

sirrus
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by sirrus »

I can look up part numbers later if you need them, but it was very easy to find with vehicle set to 88 wagoneer for me
Sometimes we reinvent the wheel not to have more wheels but to have more inventors

1988 Grand Wagoneer - AMC 360 with ProFlo4 MPFI, TF727, NP229 FOR SALE
2021 JLU Willys EcoDiesel - new shiny toy
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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

A short update:

First, I am happy to report that a cranking down my hose clamps has mitigated the random coolant leaks--I still aim to replace those hoses with proper, molded hoses, but in the meantime, I'm pleased to not be wetting the pavement when I park it.

Second, last weekend, I was driving the GW back home from the local soccer park (our older two kiddos were playing) when a sedan exiting a McDonald's pulled out right in front of me. It's been a while since I've had to get on the brakes that hard--and in my Wagoneer, the additional time it took for the front end to dive down on its leaf springs only added to my near heart failure. I'm still not sure how I managed not to hit the other driver's car, but I assure you, I verified the horn works.

That got me thinking that I needed to add "change brakes" to my list. My front pads had just a little life left in them, and I figured I wore a good bit of that off thanks to the near-miss. These last couple of weeks have been very busy between work and my grad program, so I opted to support a local small business a few blocks from the college where I work. I've known the mechanic for a long time and trust him to do good work.

But I got a real kick when I pulled in and parked beside this:

Image

As it turns out, the 1990 GW (right) is one I'd seen around town--it's owned by a commercial pilot who just brought this back down from Rhode Island, where he kept it at a summer place. He, too, had sought out this particular mechanic to keep his Wagoneer road-worthy. My new friend drives his GW to the Charlotte airport quite regularly, and even mentioned he'd gotten the speedometer up to near 90. (!!!)

I would be just as worried about getting a Wagoneer traveling at 90mph stopped as I would what might happen to the motor at such high speeds, but he didn't seem terribly fazed about it. Perhaps his risk profile is slightly different than mine.

Anyway, the brake pads are fresh, the oil is new, too, and I'm looking forward to passing the one-year mark of owning this 1987 gem.
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX
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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

It's been a great holiday break with plenty of time to drive the GW, including a very cold Christmas Day, when we took a short trip to deliver presents and enjoy a socially distanced time with my wife's parents. Hope you all had a good holiday, too.

The cold weather has introduced a new tick with the GW, though--the infamous "skipping" or "jumping" or "waving" speedo. I've found a couple of threads (here and here), coincidentally by the same poster (Nikkormat). Was never sure if either case was resolved by just applying lubricant to the speedometer cable, or if other remedies were called for.

I am admittedly nervous about tearing into the dash, and obviously this isn't a huge issue, but I also realized that I'm putting extra mileage on my Jeep when the speedo jumps up to 100mph, even though I'm only going 55. (At least, I assume that's the case--does the speedometer and odometer share the same cable/gear?) Mostly I fear breaking little plastic pieces that hold my dash together.

If anyone has further input, I'd welcome the advice.
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX

letank
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by letank »

freehold wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:47 pm I am admittedly nervous about tearing into the dash, and obviously this isn't a huge issue, but I also realized that I'm putting extra mileage on my Jeep when the speedo jumps up to 100mph, even though I'm only going 55. (At least, I assume that's the case--does the speedometer and odometer share the same cable/gear?) Mostly I fear breaking little plastic pieces that hold my dash together.
yes, speedo and odo run on the same cable, lube always help

yes, pulling the dash is a bit of a dare devil thing... Probably some plastic wedge could help to force the tab to bend and not brake, warm temperature could make the tab softer, turn on the heater max to warm up the cab. Remember to disconnect battery when doing dash removal!

90mph, your Vintage have the high gearing, aka the lowest number, 2.73 or close to that number, so the rpm is low. Using the formula
RPM = (MPH x AXLE RATIO x 336) / Tire Diameter

remember to measure the diameter of the tire, the usual stock 235/75x15 are about 28", so in our case about 2948 rpm
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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freehold
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by freehold »

Also thought I'd share my holiday vacation project: I wanted a better center console, and I liked the Wagonmasters idea of using wood, but I figured I could make an amateurish attempt for far less than $189.

Image
1987 GW, 202k miles, AMC 360 engine rebuilt 62k ago, all more or less bone stock
1997 Grand Cherokee ZJ, 244k and still going
When it rains, I drive an MDX

Waggy McGee
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by Waggy McGee »

freehold wrote:Also thought I'd share my holiday vacation project: I wanted a better center console, and I liked the Wagonmasters idea of using wood, but I figured I could make an amateurish attempt for far less than $189.

Image
That looks great! Bet you could sell those. Those other wood ones are ridiculous at $180 and yours is better. I bought a 90’s Tahoe console for $65 instead.


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sirrus
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Re: 87 Grand Wagoneer

Post by sirrus »

Nice job! I agree that $189 is absolutely outrageous for Wagonmasters console (so are all their prices IMO). How are you going too mount it? Or is it just going to sit on tranny hump under it's own weight?

I also wanted something more useful than factory armrest and fitted center console from 90s Buick Roadmaster. Console itself was just $20-ish at local junkyard, reupholstering it was considerably more, but I'm very happy with the result.

Image

Image

It moves up and down like the factory one, but I have it down 99% of the time - tends to open on it's own in the upright position and spill my stuff all over the floor :)
Sometimes we reinvent the wheel not to have more wheels but to have more inventors

1988 Grand Wagoneer - AMC 360 with ProFlo4 MPFI, TF727, NP229 FOR SALE
2021 JLU Willys EcoDiesel - new shiny toy
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