Back to stock height w/whitewalls

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Theodore
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Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by Theodore »

Been working the last couple weekends to return the Wagoneer to stock height. Swapped out the Rough Country 3” lift springs & shocks for Dayton Leaf Springs from SDTruckSprings.com & Monroe Gas-Matic shocks from RockAuto.com. What a job! Just so happened to have hit during the August heat wave. Never done anything like this before. Kudos to members on the forum for parts recommendations & Matt at BleepingJeep for the how-to videos on YouTube. Watched them a few times to gain confidence to start & went for it. The rears took a day each, with the driver’s side being the worst - due to gas tank covering the frame bolt on the inside. Thankfully, I was able to support the tank with a jack & take the bolts loose, and get my hand & wrench into the gap to remove the frame bolt.

The other big gotcha was aligning the spring pin with the perch on the axle. Used a big 3” yellow ratchet strap from Home Depot to pull front to back, and an 1 1/2” strap to pull side to side. Had to do all 4 corners to line things up correctly.

Before with 3” lift:
Image

After with stock height Dayton’s:
Image

On the rack for tires: Tires are Hankook Optimo 235/75r15.
Image

With new whitewalls:
Image
Last edited by Theodore on Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
1990 Grand Wagoneer - "Theodore" - AMC 360, fuel-injected, TF727, NP229 - Sand Metallic - restoring to stock - Build Thread
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toothofwar
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by toothofwar »

Looks great! Just out of curiosity, what's your plans for the old springs? A couple of years ago I bent a front spring and I cant find what size lift was on it. My late brothers wife (previous owner) said she thought he put a 3 inch lift on it, but couldn't remember. If you are remotely close to Kentucky and are interested in getting rid of them, let me know.

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Topic author
Theodore
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by Theodore »

toothofwar wrote:Looks great! Just out of curiosity, what's your plans for the old springs? A couple of years ago I bent a front spring and I cant find what size lift was on it. My late brothers wife (previous owner) said she thought he put a 3 inch lift on it, but couldn't remember. If you are remotely close to Kentucky and are interested in getting rid of them, let me know.

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Am looking to sell them, and am in Kingsport, TN, and as such, Am about 75-80 miles from Cumberland Gap. I just posted an ad a few minutes ago:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17605
1990 Grand Wagoneer - "Theodore" - AMC 360, fuel-injected, TF727, NP229 - Sand Metallic - restoring to stock - Build Thread
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toothofwar
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by toothofwar »

Lol, yeah I guess I jumped the gun. After I posted the question I noticed your add. I'll have to do a little research as mine is a 79. I know the drive line changed in 80 and I'm not certain if the springs will interchange or not. I'll definitely be keeping in touch. I pretty easy to get along with also, so if a buyer comes along with cash feel free to pass me up. Good looking jeep by the way.

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Topic author
Theodore
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by Theodore »

Edited 8/23 to add details re: spring pin alignment.

Also, we’d planned to bring the Wagoneer to the Jeep Invasion in Sevierville, TN. We’re here now & am seeing Mostly late model 4-door wranglers, but still quite a few classic CJ’s, 90’s Cherokees, but so far not a single FSJ.

We were on target to bring our Grand Wagoneer, but only made it 3-4 miles yesterday, before what I believe to be the high pressure o-ring on the power steering hose blew out & stranded my wife, as we were on our way to pick up our camper & drive separately. Fortunately, she was able to limp it into a gas station. Needless to say, game-over. I did try to find parts & had to hit 3 parts stores around town before finding a PS repair kit that included the o-ring. Torrential rains prevented it installation, so we decided to punt & call AAA for a tow home, yes, as soon as we committed to AAA, the rains stopped.

Guess there’s always next year.

Here was the result:
Image
1990 Grand Wagoneer - "Theodore" - AMC 360, fuel-injected, TF727, NP229 - Sand Metallic - restoring to stock - Build Thread

candymancan
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by candymancan »

You think yours was a pain... imagine the 30 year old springs.. when i did mine i was ina townhouse parking lot.. figjting 28 year old leaf springs and shackles... i had to cut everything.. including the leaf spring bracket in the rear that holds the shackle.. had to cut it right off the frame to get the sumbitch off.. Then weld it back on.

I left the group i was in. In northern va.. i went to the 4th of july group 200 people everyone of them were 4 door wranglerz.. or newer 2 door wranglers not one person cared zbout the wagoneer.

In all honesrly i dont like these groups all it is is just wranglers owners.

Which springs did you get for the front the 97-402 or the 400 or the other one ? I got the 402 1455lbs front spring.

Dont forget you need to recheck the torque on the bolts after awhile. What did you put the torque on the I bolts going in the shackles and frame ? And the torque for the 4 center bolts. I believe it should be 60 or 70 for the I bolts and 100 for the 4 center bolts
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)

Topic author
Theodore
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by Theodore »

candymancan wrote:You think yours was a pain... imagine the 30 year old springs.. when i did mine i was ina townhouse parking lot.. figjting 28 year old leaf springs and shackles... i had to cut everything.. including the leaf spring bracket in the rear that holds the shackle.. had to cut it right off the frame to get the sumbitch off.. Then weld it back on.

I left the group i was in. In northern va.. i went to the 4th of july group 200 people everyone of them were 4 door wranglerz.. or newer 2 door wranglers not one person cared zbout the wagoneer.

In all honesrly i dont like these groups all it is is just wranglers owners.

Which springs did you get for the front the 97-402 or the 400 or the other one ? I got the 402 1455lbs front spring.

Dont forget you need to recheck the torque on the bolts after awhile. What did you put the torque on the I bolts going in the shackles and frame ? And the torque for the 4 center bolts. I believe it should be 60 or 70 for the I bolts and 100 for the 4 center bolts
I hear you. Painful. Fortunately, given the lift kit was only a couple years old, I really had no rust issues to deal with. More of inexperience, a heat wave (mid to hi 90s), working on the ground, & second guessing myself to ensure I didnt get hurt. The lift took all the slack my jack stands had.

Re: springs: I got 97-400 & 97-485 from sdtrucksprings. Will say, be careful when ordering, as they drop ship from multiple suppliers, which resulted in receiving 2 Daytons & 2 Universals, which didnt match in appearance, construction or color. They did ship replacement Daytons quickly. The return of the Universals was the rub. I didnt believe it was my responsibility to pick up return shipping. Took several calls & eventually al escalation to the customer service manager for resolution. Bottom line: make sure you specify “ensure like brands” when ordering.
1990 Grand Wagoneer - "Theodore" - AMC 360, fuel-injected, TF727, NP229 - Sand Metallic - restoring to stock - Build Thread

candymancan
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by candymancan »

Oh i ordered from 2 companies. One was sdspring. The other was another one of those websites i forgot which. Reason i had to order from two was one only had the fronts in stock and the other had only the rears.

Thankfully all 4 of mine were dayton from PA. I wouldnt want some universal spring either. And id be pissed if they sent that to me. They were probly made in china too i bet. Not America. I like the dayton springs becauze its got a made in america sticker with our flag on it. And spray painted MADE IN USA right on it


Trust me i know what you mesn.. i was laying on hot aspault with just hand yools.. and a breaker bar but i nended up having yo cut off all of them.


How did you get the rear spring on the drivers side off ? Did you drop your gas tank ? Because the damn bolt is inside the frame and the skid plate and gas tank are in the way
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)

Topic author
Theodore
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Location: East Tennessee

Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by Theodore »

candymancan wrote:Oh i ordered from 2 companies. One was sdspring. The other was another one of those websites i forgot which. Reason i had to order from two was one only had the fronts in stock and the other had only the rears.

Thankfully all 4 of mine were dayton from PA. I wouldnt want some universal spring either. And id be pissed if they sent that to me. They were probly made in china too i bet. Not America. I like the dayton springs becauze its got a made in america sticker with our flag on it. And spray painted MADE IN USA right on it


Trust me i know what you mesn.. i was laying on hot aspault with just hand yools.. and a breaker bar but i nended up having yo cut off all of them.


How did you get the rear spring on the drivers side off ? Did you drop your gas tank ? Because the damn bolt is inside the frame and the skid plate and gas tank are in the way
In the end, I have 4 Daytons: 2-USA & 2 Mexico, but am going to be ok with that, after all it took to get what I have & the ride is amazing comparatively speaking.

Re: rear drivers side front bolt: i supported the gas tank with a jack, and took the tank retaining bolts loose & slid it over against the drive shaft. This gave me an inch or so, which was enough to get a wrench & my hand in the gap. Control of the wrench involved putting my thumb in the box-end, and finagling the open end onto the bolt. Not optimum, but I didnt have to drop the tank.

I originally torqued the bolts with it in the air: 100 for center bolts, and 80 on the ends, and noticed once in the ground, that it settled unevenly. So, I backed off the ends to 50 to let it settle for a few days, and Am planning on torquing back to 80.

One thing I noticed riding around yesterday was squeaking when pulling into uneven driveways, etc. Shot the shackles with lithium grease to see if that would quiet it down. Has improved, but is still prominent. I didn’t grease the bolts, so am wondering whether I shouldve...?
1990 Grand Wagoneer - "Theodore" - AMC 360, fuel-injected, TF727, NP229 - Sand Metallic - restoring to stock - Build Thread

will e
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by will e »

Hey, that looks really good. I think they look good with lifts too. Heck, I love them all. But I am digging the stock look with the white walls. Well done!
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge

candymancan
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by candymancan »

I didnt greese my bolts snd realized i should have after the fact as well. But it isnt what it is now and i aint taking it apart lols.

Mine didnt make noises though. You are probly hearing the springs rub eachother as they flex. Mine did that for awhile
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)

Topic author
Theodore
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls - 6 month Update

Post by Theodore »

Am at a loss and looking for help. Am nearly 6 months post a new leaf spring/shock/u-bolt/shackle/leaf-bolt install to return our Wagoneer to stock height, and the new springs have not settled out evenly. The biggest issue i see is the Driver's Rear is 1" lower than the Passenger Rear; making it noticable looking at the rear, as well as, down the driver's side.

I recently had a bodyshop look at it to ensure the frame wasn't bent/twisted & they confirmed we're good there, and they believe the drivers rear spring is weak. I didn't notice a different in the springs or their arch before i put these in. I contacted the seller/distributor a couple of days ago, and they're saying a warranty claim requires pictures of the springs on the vehicle, as well as, pictures of the springs removed, turned upside down & measured from the ground to the peak of the arch. With no lift, this seems a lot of work, only to find that the arch measures out (therefore, i assume the warranty claim is denied), and i'm stuck with a car i can't drive.

I also spoke w/a local spring shop that claims they can re-arch the bad spring, but i am concerned about the amount of work, and we end
up still off.

With all this, i have several questions:
1) what options do i have to fix this?
2) is there an adjustment somewhere that i may have neglected to make that would bring things into line? Have seen a mention of toyota drivers elsewhere on the Internet having to adjust torsion bars. I don't think Wagoneers have them, but thought i'd ask.
3) What are the stock measurements supposed to be from the ground to the top of the fender arches, when sitting on stock tires?

Driver's Side - note the apparent downslope from front to rear
Image

Rear - note the apparent upslope from left to right
Image

Driver's Side Rear Fender measures ~28" from ground
Image

Passenger Side Rear Fender measures ~29" from ground
Image

Driver's Side front Fender measures ~31" from ground
Image

Passenger side Front Fender measures ~31 5/16" from ground
Image
1990 Grand Wagoneer - "Theodore" - AMC 360, fuel-injected, TF727, NP229 - Sand Metallic - restoring to stock - Build Thread

will e
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by will e »

My springs do not provide an even level from side to side both front and back. This isn't atypical with these jeeps. On older springs, which yours are not, we get the 'wag sag' on the drivers side due to the driver and gas tank being on the same side of the truck.

One option is to try to swap out the rear springs and see if that evens it out a bit.

Also, it appears to me your rear bumper is bent. So it might add to the look of it leaning.

I wouldn't consider the differences in height as 'undrivable'.

Here are my fender measurements. It's a wide track with lots of lift and big tires

driver front 41 1/4
driver rear 41 5/8
passenger rear 43
passenger front 42 1/2
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by fulsizjeep »

Measuring this way also takes body mounts into account. I imagine the measurement can vary a bit considering how they settle over time. It looks like the rear bumper is mounted a little higher on the right side compared to left. I don't see anything wrong with driving this Jeep the way it is unless there is more to the story.
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Theodore
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by Theodore »

Agree w/the bumper being crooked. Intent is eventually work my way thru it & paint/reupholster it; so having it leaning is bothersome, especially given spending so much money/effort to swap springs/shocks. Looking across the top of the tailgate, it's noticeable that we're leaning to the left.

The other thing that's interesting, is comparing the stiffness of the springs by pushing each end of the rear bumper up & down; the drivers side is noticeably easier to push down that the passenger side. measuring frame to body at the bushing mount points show they're within a 1/16 side to side.
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tgreese
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by tgreese »

Don't think it's so bad for the FSJs, but the leaf-sprung baby Jeeps often lean. Search for "Jeep lean" on any of the CJ forums. Lots of remedies have been tried, with limited success.

IMO this is a rather common problem with leaf-sprung live-axle vehicles.

Jeep used to have a kit specifically to address lean in these Jeeps that leaned during warranty. Post 18 in this thread has the documents that go with the kit: http://earlycj5.com/xf_cj5/index.php?th ... id.133223/

You have to be a member at earlycj5.com to see the pics, so I put them here:
https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/ ... rKitP1.jpg
https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/ ... rKitP2.jpg

You could do the same thing to level your Wagoneer. Make the parts and buy somewhat longer u-bolts, as needed.

Make sure that the shackles are not binding on the spring eyes. Swap the shocks from left to right to see if there is any difference how easy you can bounce that corner.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
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tgreese
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by tgreese »

Also - The document above suggests that you lubricate the springs. Back at the Jeep dealer, routine service by the line mechanics always included oiling the ends of the springs. They used a pump oiler filled with half motor oil and half solvent, and would squirt the ends of the leaves. They were very thorough at routine service, lubricating the springs, door hinges, latches, etc.

My opinion - unless you have body mounts rusting out or other such issues, this lean is entirely an aesthetic problem.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

Topic author
Theodore
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by Theodore »

tgreese wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:55 am Also - The document above suggests that you lubricate the springs. Back at the Jeep dealer, routine service by the line mechanics always included oiling the ends of the springs. They used a pump oiler filled with half motor oil and half solvent, and would squirt the ends of the leaves. They were very thorough at routine service, lubricating the springs, door hinges, latches, etc.

My opinion - unless you have body mounts rusting out or other such issues, this lean is entirely an aesthetic problem.
Ive also got a squeak/clunk when pulling into our driveway - which has a ramp up from the street. I’ve greased the rear spring bolts, shackles and leaves which has noticeably reduced it, but not gotten rid of it. I believe it to be on the passenger side. Makes me wonder whether the drivers side being lower is creating a bind.

Am thinking next step is to swap shocks side to side, and see what happens.
Then, move on to swapping springs side to side and measuring arch while theyre out. If arches differ, then will seek a warranty claim from the distributor.
If we still have an issue, take a look at finding/making a leveling kit like what was mentioned above. Hopefully, we don’t have to go that far.
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tgreese
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Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by tgreese »

Regarding the clunk, that can be the spring pack shifting as the suspension flexes. More often when when the spring bushings are worn, but possible anyway. Did you replace the silent block bushings in the frame when the springs were swapped out? Lubricating between the leaves may help with this. Check u-bolt torque - they are supposed to be quite tight. Check the TSM for proper torque based on bolt diameter. Also look at the sway bar bushings (if so equipped), driveshaft u-joints (they get a lot more stress when lifted) and engine or transmission mounts.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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Theodore
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Location: East Tennessee

Re: Back to stock height w/whitewalls

Post by Theodore »

tgreese wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:32 am Did you replace the silent block bushings in the frame when the springs were swapped out? Lubricating between the leaves may help with this. Check u-bolt torque - they are supposed to be quite tight. Check the TSM for proper torque based on bolt diameter. Also look at the sway bar bushings (if so equipped), driveshaft u-joints (they get a lot more stress when lifted) and engine or transmission mounts.
As far as I know, I replaced all bushings associated with leaf springs - springs and shackles both came with new bushings installed. Cant say Ive ever heard of silent block bushings. Where do they go?

Will check u-bolt torque - have torqued 2x to 100lbs so far. Once at install & again ~500 miles later.
1990 Grand Wagoneer - "Theodore" - AMC 360, fuel-injected, TF727, NP229 - Sand Metallic - restoring to stock - Build Thread
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