Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

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memsiej
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by memsiej »

Battery is brand new. 2 weeks old maybe?

So something is clearly drawing way more power than it should, because in ACC I could watch the battery level drop. Had the idea to charge battery, take out all the fuses, turn to ACC and put them back in one by one and watch for dropping.

Battery was measuring 1186. Took out all fuses, turned to ACC, and it started dropping quick. Down to 10.5 in a minute or so. But all the fuses were out. What could that indicate?
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tgreese
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by tgreese »

The voltage is a blunt instrument here. Changing battery voltage is a side effect of the current.

Use the amps setting of your multimeter. Test the current conducted from the battery to the car. This is what you are seeing.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
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letank
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by letank »

Indeed a bummer... disconnect the alternator... for a quick test!

As for charging... all the outdoors sleepers are on solar panel.... that 10 years battery is still good ... well OK...

the best charger conditioner is the Noco , Genius brand... for those garage sleepers that gets driven once a week, or once a month or less... it restored the battery to specs after about 3 charges, still at 12.6v after 4 weeks without charge -but disconnected- Ours is a 1.1 amp from 4 years ago. There is a 2 amp now:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07W6B987F/re ... NrPXRydWU=
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

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memsiej
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by memsiej »

I did disconnect the alternator and STILL the drop happens. So, at this point it can't be anything with the gauges, lights, or anything on the fuses because those are all pulled. Can't be the alternator because that's disconnected. So I'm thinking it has to be ignition switch.
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tgreese
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by tgreese »

letank wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 5:54 pm the best charger conditioner is the Noco , Genius brand... for those garage sleepers that gets driven once a week, or once a month or less... it restored the battery to specs after about 3 charges, still at 12.6v after 4 weeks without charge -but disconnected- Ours is a 1.1 amp from 4 years ago.
I have a Noco on the CJ-6. The rest have the Deltran. Except the KL, which is driven at least every other day. Both tenders seem fine.
https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS1-Ful ... r_1_7_sspa

Either type would be a good investment IMO. I also have the Harbor Freight offering, which worked while I was using it. I don't use it any more because there were reports of it over-charging batteries over a long time. The Noco and Deltran have proprietary circuits to pull back the charge current as the battery comes up to full charge, and send a tiny booster charge over some proprietary schedule. Seems to make my batteries last much longer.

I also use a battery tester to check the condition of my batteries occasionally. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IZ ... asin_title Seems to work well.

To OP, suggest you measure with the amps setting of your multimeter. Could be there is no drain and the fault is with your battery. Measure. If you don't understand this, ask.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
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Topic author
memsiej
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by memsiej »

Battery amp reading and an interesting find when replacing the ignition switch.

https://ibb.co/gSY3ZPs
https://ibb.co/KDGgZXZ

More bad news is that there's activity between some of the wires in the harness (the scarred one and others in that harness), so something is not good there. Also, now not even the dome lights come on when the door is open. It's like there's no battery in the beast at all.
1984 Grand Wagoneer V8 5.9

letank
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by letank »

that 6 milli amp is not bad if reading your scales correctly (200 mA scale) ... but I have a suspicion that you have your voltmeter DVM cables on the wrong input, the black should be on the common... not too sure what the label is.

As for the burned connector... cannot remember which part of the wiring it is from.

As for the dome light off, you are on a good track... most of the used FSJ I bought always had the dome light fuse out... forgot the label for the dome light, but there is a fuse... Time to pull the underhood light bulb ...
The dome light is controlled by the headlight switch... which has the thermal fuse... may be disconnect the headlight switch molex plug ... this one is a pain... always ruin a good manicure... I had to make you laugh...
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

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memsiej
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by memsiej »

Dome light worked before the alternator drama and ignition switch install. Fuse is still good; all of them are. I guess what I means was that there is NO electrical activity of any sort, whether key is in off or ACC. The dome light came up as a way to notice that the electrical problem now exists even before putting the key in.

I have a new headlight switch waiting to be installed anyway, just haven't gotten to it yet.
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marc
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by marc »

About the ammeter to voltage meter conversion for y J10. Are the two ammeter wires joined together with a fusible link and is that done under the dash or are the wires usually pulled back through the firewall and linked in the engine compartment. Thanks, Marc
J10 1984, very stock with AMC 258.
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by Stuka »

marc wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:21 pm About the ammeter to voltage meter conversion for y J10. Are the two ammeter wires joined together with a fusible link and is that done under the dash or are the wires usually pulled back through the firewall and linked in the engine compartment. Thanks, Marc
The quick and easy bypass is to move both wires onto the same post on the back of the ammeter. This makes it so that no current is going through the ammeter, and therefor no heat is being generated inside of it.

The more correct, and more time consuming way is to no longer run system power through the cab at all. Basically replacing 10ft of wire with a much shorter piece.
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Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

letank
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by letank »

memsiej wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 5:48 pm Dome light worked before the alternator drama and ignition switch install. Fuse is still good; all of them are. I guess what I means was that there is NO electrical activity of any sort, whether key is in off or ACC. The dome light came up as a way to notice that the electrical problem now exists even before putting the key in.

I have a new headlight switch waiting to be installed anyway, just haven't gotten to it yet.
My take on disconnecting the dome fuse is about the wires running under the carpet and being worn, that could cause some abnormal behavior... same for the well and cargo light. It is a rough basic installation and being over 36 year old... things can be happening out of sight.

Hope that the headlight switch does the trick.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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tgreese
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by tgreese »

marc wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:21 pm About the ammeter to voltage meter conversion for y J10. Are the two ammeter wires joined together with a fusible link and is that done under the dash or are the wires usually pulled back through the firewall and linked in the engine compartment. Thanks, Marc

Image

I made this crude drawing a few years ago. This is correct for my '82, but your year could have different details. The overall scheme is the same for any Jeep with an ammeter.

In the original scheme (top), all the current goes through one wire via the dash. This uses a single fusible link (marked "14 ga" between splice K and the solenoid). The ammeter connects the yellow and red wires.

When you remove the ammeter, you still need to reach splice B with power. On my '82, that required a new splice between the yellow wire and red wire where the ammeter would have been. The original fusible link still protects this part of the circuit.

In the lower drawing, the wire from the alternator is disconnected from the bulkhead connector and sent directly to the battery via the solenoid connection. This now bypasses the original fusible link, so I suggest a second fusible link between the alternator and the battery.

Realize the fusible links are there to protect the car from the battery and prevent a car fire in case of a wreck or similar catastrophe. They are simply a piece of wire with special insulation that will melt without setting the rest of the car on fire. Much more reliable than a fuse or circuit breaker.

I left out a bunch of detail that you should be able to figure out. If not, ask.
Last edited by tgreese on Fri May 21, 2021 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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memsiej
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by memsiej »

tgreese, Thanks for that write up. I know I need to do the ammeter bypass but am so focused right now on solving the problem at hand. I feel like, for competency sake, I want to solve this problem and then tackle the ammeter bypass. Maybe that's silly. I know in principle its a very simple process, but as you all know I am very very new to electrical, so everything is complicated to me. At the very least, I'll follow the advice of putting the red and yellow wires on the back of the instrument board onto one shared post when I reconnect.

Speaking of fusible links, I started to explore that as a possible culprit after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SpsSRGfDQI (I know... some people hate him). But also many other posts of people saying "It's like there's no battery in my car- nothing works" and it turns out to be a fusible link.


Found these fusible links coming off the starter solenoid. Plan is to replace them and see what happens, unless anyone has a walkthrough on how to test them as is.

https://ibb.co/QdQ1zj2
https://ibb.co/5cdBs17
https://ibb.co/gFMK0zK

And there's this- already ordered a new connector but maybe that's a part of the situation?
https://ibb.co/P1Sj3y3
Last edited by memsiej on Fri May 21, 2021 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tgreese
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by tgreese »

memsiej wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 7:42 am tgreese, Thanks for that write up. I know I need to do the ammeter bypass but am so focused right now on solving the problem at hand. I feel like, for competency sake, I want to solve this problem and then tackle the ammeter bypass. Maybe that's silly.

Speaking of fusible links, I started to explore that as a possible culprit after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SpsSRGfDQI (I know... some people hate him). But also many other posts of people saying "It's like there's no battery in my car- nothing works" and it turns out to be a fusible link.


Found these fusible links coming off the starter solenoid. Plan is to replace them and see what happens, unless anyone has a walkthrough on how to test them as is.

https://ibb.co/QdQ1zj2
https://ibb.co/5cdBs17
https://ibb.co/gFMK0zK

And there's this- already ordered a new connector but maybe that's a part of the situation?
https://ibb.co/P1Sj3y3
I think you're on the wrong track here. They are just a piece of wire with a special insulation that won't melt or catch fire. They should measure with your multimeter like a piece of wire with a similar length.

A wire that length will have an unmeasurable resistance with your instrument; something like a fraction of a milliohm. To measure low resistances, short your leads together and note the resistance reading. Then measure with the wire between the leads. The difference will be the resistance of the added wire. Really, I think the resistance of a fusible link will be buried in the measurement error. Undetectable. Either completely open or no different from a piece of wire.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

Topic author
memsiej
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by memsiej »

On the wrong track as far as this is not an issue with a fusible link? Or on the wrong track about testing/replacing them?
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by tgreese »

I'd also suggest that you follow up on the amps reading you gave a few posts back. If it's really say 60 mA, that's not enough to drain a fully charged battery in a day or two. A car battery is maybe 100 amp-hours, so to drain it completely would take 2000 hours, or about 12 weeks. Each day of draining at 60 mA is something like 1% of the battery capacity. You're either making the measurement wrong, or your instrument is broken, or the battery is kaput.

Assuming your instrument is wrong, you can still look for the leak. Unplug parts of the harness to separate the battery from parts of the car. You'll need to use your ingenuity here - look at the car and the diagram and figure out what to do.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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tgreese
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by tgreese »

memsiej wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 7:52 am On the wrong track as far as this is not an issue with a fusible link? Or on the wrong track about testing/replacing them?
Suspect the fusible links are ok and not relevant to your problem. Easy to test - go ahead and test them.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

Topic author
memsiej
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by memsiej »

Heyyyyy photos IN the post! I can learn thing :mrgreen:

Double checked battery, even took it back to the shop where they tested and charged it just in case. Then, while I was waiting for that to finish up, I went around and tested everything I could find for resistance. Almost everything tested OK (3.8 with meter on 20M).
Things that showed higher resistance:

This:
Black to Red or Yellow: 17.7 All other combos OK.
Yellow fusible link goes to starter solenoid, red to alternator. Black gets lost in a wrap- I THINK it goes to ammeter if I'm reading the diagram correctly? (disconnected before testing, just forgot to get a pic)? But also, I don't see in any wiring diagrams that the yellow connects to a red AND black... :P
Image

This:
At the burned up heater connector (no surprise).
Brown to red 14.7. All other combos OK.
Image


This:
Found even more melted connections.
There are two 'gray w/ black' wires going to the same connection here, and I cannot find where they originate. But one of them is reading 17 when paired with all the other wires in that harness; all other connections OK.
Image

Other things:
When putting fuses back in, I had too many 25s and not enough 20s. Seems there were some 25s where 20s should have gone. Maybe that's worth something.

Replaced the headlight switch.

Replaced this connection from the starter solenoid to the 10A fuse.
Image

Replaced the ignition coil bracket (needed it. proof:
Image
watermelon gif

Found this ground when I had the carpet up- not connected to anything, but I assume it goes right there on the lower part of the dash.
Image


DOn't know if this means anything; I have a very good and kind person sending me new connectors for the heater switch and the ignition switch, since they were pretty burnt. When those show up, I'll button it all back up and see if there's any power. Only thing disconnected at this point is that heater switch, but I figure just wait to get it connected before trying to turn to ACC again.
1984 Grand Wagoneer V8 5.9

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memsiej
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by memsiej »

Weirder still. I knew there'd been some PO rewiring of the heater, and since that brown wire coming off the switch was testing high resistance, I followed it. Got to the resistor and found that tan comes off connected to nothing, and testing high resistance. There's a new red wire hooking up to the blower motor. Also, suddenly that brown wire on the switch is no longer testing high resistance...? Neither is the mystery black wire that was connected to the fusible link. Going to follow that later today. How can something test high resistance one day, and fine the next? Used two multimeters.

Image
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letank
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Re: Sick of me yet? Plugged the instrument panel back in and now it's haunted.

Post by letank »

Really, do the ammeter bypass...
even dirtier : connect both red and yellow wire together, with a bolt and nut and wrap it with a thick piece of tape... for a few turns...
Now you can remove the instrument cluster more easily.

As for the heater... I would have to look again at my notes... but in your case I suspect that the resistor is missing low or medium fan speed and somebody decided to hook up the red wire directly to the fan motor. The lBrown, Brown and tan with tracer go to specific terminals of the fan resistor mounted on the side of the heater box near the #8 cylinder.

I messed up a few months ago and when I reinstalled the heater plug on the cluster... it was installed one connector off... and that standing connector was grounded with the ground wire ... at least my fuse worked... but left me stumped... why is it blowing fuses...?
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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