Rivian

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Moosehead
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Rivian

Post by Moosehead »

I’ve been intrigued enough to put down a refundable deposit for the R1S (SUV), though it will likely take another 18 months to be delivered. I normally won’t wait in line for a cup of coffee so my ADHD and steep pricing will likely cancel the deposit.

Checked out the new Denver service center and saw a few R1T (truck) which have largely been unicorns. The fit and finish is strong, though the rear bed looks small (54”) even compared to short bed pickups.

For the record, the Waggy invented range anxiety 50+ some odd years ago.
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Re: Rivian

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Honestly, I'm slightly invested in the company. I like what I see. They are looking to tap a large chunk of the American market IMO. they're having typical start up woes, but nothing Tesla didn't see either. I hope they are successful. I just LS swapped my Wagoneer. If it is still in the stable in a decade or so, I'd love to electric swap it as I believe the electrification push will be in full swing and retro swaps should be more affordable. Already like what Ford is doing with their E crate offerings.

BTW, you should've gotten the confused owner electric gas pump shot with your Wag.

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Re: Rivian

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^Nice, I thought about staging that pic, but it felt a bit explosive.
Last edited by Moosehead on Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rivian

Post by will e »

I am seriously thinking I will replace my late model ZR2 with an electric pickup. It's going to be a couple of years but when it is time to replace it I won't rule out electric. Hopefully in a couple of years the choices will be greater.
I use my truck mostly around town. We do take it a couple of hundred miles every few months and more than 500 miles once a year. I think I can live with the hassle of charging it up on those few longer trips.

I've watched a lot of videos on the Rivien and read some stuff as well. It's bad ass. You can take it off road and then do zero to 60 times that will compete with super cars. It's heavy. So, it won't ever be a track car. And I do wonder if people realize the weight of the truck means it uses more 'energy' to get from place to place.
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Re: Rivian

Post by letank »

great stagged pict... today for $70K you can probably electrify a FSJ...
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Re: Rivian

Post by cone »

They are cute "trucks" but I'll never get one. They will have to pry my cold dead fingers off the gas pump handle. I love the smell of carbon monoxide in the morning, it smells like freedom!
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Re: Rivian

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cone wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:50 am They are cute "trucks" but I'll never get one. They will have to pry my cold dead fingers off the gas pump handle. I love the smell of carbon monoxide in the morning, it smells like freedom!
I'm sure the same was said of the horse and buggy experience.
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Re: Rivian

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The truck itself has some good parts. Interior is nice, the ride is really nice thanks to the perhaps over complicated suspension. Will be interesting to see how long it lasts on something as heavy as the R1T (before this it was only used on McLarens).

But the company itself is pretty slimy. They have refused to let the media (besides MotorTrend) test the truck. And then MotorTrend’s testing wasn’t real world. MotorTrend choosing it as truck of the year is pretty suspect to. Since they were also the only outlet that was “invited” on that little cross country trip. And MT has gone out of their way to post overly positive reviews, but they refuses to answer why they have yet to test everything. Or how they could choose truck for truck of the year that still has not been crash tested, and is not available for sale yet. (They are currently building three trucks per day). Motortrend even went so far as to say is the best off-road truck ever built, but their tests were pretty lacking. And the truck not being able to lock all four tires together can get it into some dicey situations.

Rivian has also gone out and attacked people that question them on some things they refuse to clarify. Like, did they use the SAE J2807 towing standard to come up with their max tow rating (it’s assumed not as the tongue weight would go past the trucks Max payload). And what is the range while towing that max load.

There is also somebody that owns one, and towed less than half is max rating across the country, while posting videos of their experience. And Rivian has attacked them for it. Which is BS for a company to go out and attack owners for using the vehicle.

Anyway. I think the Ford Lightning will be a much better truck. As will the upcoming GMC that will use the Hummers platform.
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Re: Rivian

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cone wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:50 am They are cute "trucks" but I'll never get one. They will have to pry my cold dead fingers off the gas pump handle. I love the smell of carbon monoxide in the morning, it smells like freedom!
Carbon Monoxide literally has no smell at all, which is why it’s so deadly if it gets into your house.

But out of curiosity, what makes you against an electric truck?
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Re: Rivian

Post by cone »

Stuka wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:50 am
cone wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:50 am They are cute "trucks" but I'll never get one. They will have to pry my cold dead fingers off the gas pump handle. I love the smell of carbon monoxide in the morning, it smells like freedom!
Carbon Monoxide literally has no smell at all, which is why it’s so deadly if it gets into your house.

But out of curiosity, what makes you against an electric truck?
I don't have a problem with EVs. For some applications they make a lot of sense but not for all. What I have a problem is the governments subsidizing them with billions of taxpayer dollars because they can't compete with ICE cars on the open market or out right banning them like they are in Europe. I know someone will say "Well we subsidies the oil companies". The fact is the oil companies take advantage of the same tax breaks that every other industry does, it's nothing special for them. Comparing any resistance to EVs saying "I'm sure the same was said of the horse and buggy experience" is naive. The automobile was superior in every way to the horse and buggy, the same can't be said for EVs when compared to ICE vehicles.
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Re: Rivian

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cone wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:10 am
Stuka wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:50 am
cone wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:50 am They are cute "trucks" but I'll never get one. They will have to pry my cold dead fingers off the gas pump handle. I love the smell of carbon monoxide in the morning, it smells like freedom!
Carbon Monoxide literally has no smell at all, which is why it’s so deadly if it gets into your house.

But out of curiosity, what makes you against an electric truck?
I don't have a problem with EVs. For some applications they make a lot of sense but not for all. What I have a problem is the governments subsidizing them with billions of taxpayer dollars because they can't compete with ICE cars on the open market or out right banning them like they are in Europe. I know someone will say "Well we subsidies the oil companies". The fact is the oil companies take advantage of the same tax breaks that every other industry does, it's nothing special for them. Comparing any resistance to EVs saying "I'm sure the same was said of the horse and buggy experience" is naive. The automobile was superior in every way to the horse and buggy, the same can't be said for EVs when compared to ICE vehicles.
Not entirely true. At the time, fuel stations were rare. You had to live in a metropolitan area to have easy access to fuel. Somebody could easily feed their horses. A horse and buggy’s was significantly cheaper and more reliable. A horse could easily travel the muddy roads without getting stuck. It took about thirty years for cars to really good into a position where they were both affordable and reliable.

Right now, the only thing that ICE vehicles have over electric is the ability to refuel faster, and that electric vehicles are heavier. Price has largely become comparable between them (this excludes tax rebates for companies that have not yet used them up). The F150 Lightning will be priced only slightly above a gas powered version. Another cost to compare is price to own. An oil change in a current model truck is 150-200 depending on the engine. Oil changes don’t exist on an electric vehicle. Maintenance as a whole is very low. No oil changes, no transmission fluid. There is coolant, but it does not have to deal with the high temps that engine coolant does, so it last much longer.

The main argument against an EV right now, is time to charge, which really only impacts people that regularly go for extended drives. The vast majority of people drive less than fifty miles per day. So having to charge every 200-400 miles (depending on the model) isn’t an issue. The other argument is people that tow longer distance regularly. As towing does greatly reduce range.

And another argument against is people that go for extended off-road trips. This is a place where hybrids (Like the Wrangler 4xE) are a better option. As is easy to carry a jerry cab with extra fuel. Not so easy to carry extra charge.

It will also result in the end of the sports car. Cecile like the MX5 or the like would nearly double in weight, which would run them. This is the thing that will make me the most sad. Heavy vehicles like trucks won’t really change. But lightweight cars won’t survive the transition.
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Re: Rivian

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As Stuka summized, Rivian has been overly controlling about industry reviews as they are essentially rolling out first inventory to employees as beta testers. Same is likely true for first arms length private customers. Battery tech and safety, charging network (proprietary and otherwise), crash safety, service, and reliability are all to be realized under real world testing and development by a start up. Range depletion is a real issue on elevation gain, during cold weather, and under tow loads. $90B IPO on barely any topline and $1.2B negative EBITDA seems stretched at best.

Regardless, there’s also objective reason the R1T has gotten such positive reviews. Combine 330 miles range (max pack), max 15” clearance in an incredibly sophisticated suspension, tremendous approach and departure angles, 4 motors, one at each wheel for uber traction, and 3.2 sec 0-60 and one can see the promise. Other than the above unanswered outcomes, my only gripe on the truck is the short bed as they could have easily gone to 5’.
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Re: Rivian

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Stuka wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:42 pm Right now, the only thing that ICE vehicles have over electric is the ability to refuel faster, and that electric vehicles are heavier. Price has largely become comparable between them (this excludes tax rebates for companies that have not yet used them up). The F150 Lightning will be priced only slightly above a gas powered version. Another cost to compare is price to own. An oil change in a current model truck is 150-200 depending on the engine. Oil changes don’t exist on an electric vehicle. Maintenance as a whole is very low. No oil changes, no transmission fluid. There is coolant, but it does not have to deal with the high temps that engine coolant does, so it last much longer.
I'm not sure about this. One thing that is going to drag universal EV adoption is battery technology. With current tech (of course this can change), and based on 2017 production levels, we need hundreds of years of production in order to create enough batteries for EV ands grid storage. The highlights being 550+ years for Cobalt and 700+ for lithium.
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Re: Rivian

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ArchitectJS wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:14 pm
Stuka wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:42 pm Right now, the only thing that ICE vehicles have over electric is the ability to refuel faster, and that electric vehicles are heavier. Price has largely become comparable between them (this excludes tax rebates for companies that have not yet used them up). The F150 Lightning will be priced only slightly above a gas powered version. Another cost to compare is price to own. An oil change in a current model truck is 150-200 depending on the engine. Oil changes don’t exist on an electric vehicle. Maintenance as a whole is very low. No oil changes, no transmission fluid. There is coolant, but it does not have to deal with the high temps that engine coolant does, so it last much longer.
I'm not sure about this. One thing that is going to drag universal EV adoption is battery technology. With current tech (of course this can change), and based on 2017 production levels, we need hundreds of years of production in order to create enough batteries for EV ands grid storage. The highlights being 550+ years for Cobalt and 700+ for lithium.
They are rapidly moving away from cobalt for savings and supply issues. I've followed the electric push for a while and have never seen the above figures. Sources?

Add to that, the batteries are highly recyclable, so that cuts out quite a bit of the production process in the future.
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Re: Rivian

Post by will e »

Doug Demuro has a couple of youtube videos on the Rivian. One that he takes it out wheeling. He said it is weird to wheel with no engine noise and basically you mash the throttle and the truck does the rest.
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Re: Rivian

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will e wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:08 am Doug Demuro has a couple of youtube videos on the Rivian. One that he takes it out wheeling. He said it is weird to wheel with no engine noise and basically you mash the throttle and the truck does the rest.
I've seen that video. It's cringy to watch that thing wheel. It does it. But, it only does it as well as a modern awd minivan with the computers controlling slip. That is the big reason I'd rather convert an old school rig and leave the transfer case and axles in place, replacing the transmission with the electric motor. I'd rather finesse a vehicle over rough stuff than keep applying throttle.

However, I'm in the minority. Most people will never attempt those things and will be happy with some minor rutted forest roads and camping, which is the exact market they're shooting for.
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Re: Rivian

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In Rivian’s case, with a motor at each wheel, there is no center driveshaft/transfer case/differential. Note the early videos showing the R1T doing Hell’s Gate and other OR efforts are also using their own stock Pirelli Scorpion spec tires which are not nearly as aggressive or capable AT rubber but the incredible traction afforded by Rivian’s unique drivetrain still shows remarkable prowess OR. This, plus 4 wheel adjustable indy air suspension provide for some impressive OR capabilities, of which they are just scratching the surface. OR gearing can simply be customized by ECU vs mechanical trans, axles, and lockers.

See Jalopnik’s description of the Rivian chassis and OR capabilities here:

https://jalopnik.com/a-ridiculously-det ... 1847749837

Pic of skateboard chassis below, the mid frame is all battery cells providing for clearance, low weight distribution, and in cabin space.
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Re: Rivian

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Moosehead wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:53 am In Rivian’s case, with a motor at each wheel, there is no center driveshaft/transfer case/differential. Note the early videos showing the R1T doing Hell’s Gate and other OR efforts are also using their own stock Pirelli Scorpion spec tires which are not nearly as aggressive or capable OR rubber but the incredible traction afforded by Rivian’s unique drivetrain still shows remarkable prowess OR. This, plus 4 wheel adjustable indy air suspension provide for some impressive OR capabilities, of which they are just scratching the surface. OR gearing can simply be customized by ECU vs mechanical trans, axles, and lockers.

See Jalopnik’s description of the Rivian chassis and OR capabilities here:

https://jalopnik.com/a-ridiculously-det ... 1847749837

Pic of skateboard chassis below, the mid frame is all battery cells providing for clearance, low weight distribution, and in cabin space.
This issue with the four motor approach, and Doug’s video showed this perfectly, is that it’s extremely rare that all four tires have the same amount of loading on them. In a vehicle with lockers, all four tires have to spin at the same speed. So if one tire has tons of traction, but the other three do not, the three without are not going to sit there and spin like crazy. Instead that tire with traction will pull the vehicle up as it will be receiving all the torque. This allows for finesse, as the driver has far better control. It also means the vehicle won’t lose lateral stability.

With the Rivian, this is not the case. Each tire is being sent the same amount of torque, but the only thing controlling wheel speed is the computer. But all the computer does is decrease the torque going to wheels that are spinning. The one tire with traction is still stuck there without enough torque to pull the vehicle up. So he kept having to give it more throttle. But then once it got up that one spot, the amount of throttle way was too much so everything started to spin like crazy.

As for gearing, no. This can’t be done via an ECU. You cannot program in mechanical leverage. One of the big issues with current electric vehicles (except the 4xE) is that they do not have low gearing. This means two things. One, the motor spends a lot of time at very low RPM where it is extremely inefficient. The current draw is insanely high at zero RPM. Sure they make tons of torque there, but at the cost of crazy high battery consumption. In normal driving though they are only there for a split second. Off road, they are there most of the time. The other side effects of this is you have to rely heavily on the computer to control vehicle speed when traction is lost, which is bad. In my Wrangler for instance, I know in first gear, low range I am basically redlining at 9mph. If I break traction, I know my wheel speed isn’t going to go nuts. However in the Rivian, if you disabled traction control, the tire could quickly spin up to 100mph. Meaning if it then caught traction, parts are going to explode. And I know Rivian does not allow you to turn it off. Which brings up the issue of how do you get through obstacles that require when spin?

As for the suspension, as I note above, on the street it is great. And it does show some interesting characteristics off-road. It is also however extremely complicated with all the cross corner lines. And if really used off-road, it is unlikely it would hold up.

Rivian seems bent on trying to make the truck a Jack of all trades. They keep trying to market it as the truck that does everything perfectly. And if anybody says anything bad, they attack them for it. They are hurting themselves by setting expectations unrealistically high.
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Re: Rivian

Post by will e »

Also, no one is talking about the weight. It's over 7000 pounds. A typical f150 weighs bewteen 4 and 5 thousand pounds. There is an energy cost to carrying that extra 2000 pounds.
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Re: Rivian

Post by ArchitectJS »

dodgerammit wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:01 pm They are rapidly moving away from cobalt for savings and supply issues. I've followed the electric push for a while and have never seen the above figures. Sources?

Add to that, the batteries are highly recyclable, so that cuts out quite a bit of the production process in the future.
I cant find the original article i was referencing but here is a similar one.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/pres ... t-zer.html
This represents, just under two times the total annual world cobalt production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three quarters the world’s lithium production and 12% of the world’s copper production during 2018.
Referencing the UK only
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