65 Waggy 4bt swap

[Pablo]

Last year I acquired a 1967 Wagoneer:



Then I acquired this CPL1839 4BT cut off out of a bread truck with 75,000 on the odometer:



After looking into emissions, I decided I was better off with a 66 or earlier vehicle for a 4bt swap, so I acquired this 1965:



I hope to use the 67 for parts for now. Eventually, I may build both of them if I don't find too much hidden rust (one for me and one for a backup vehicle for the wife). If both builds happen I will just have to find another parts vehicle, eventually.

I intend to "resto-mod" this build. Perhaps more "mod" than resto, but I intend to keep the original 60's appearance for the most part. This will be a offroad capable build with a frame off restoration.

I know the frame to the 65 is going to need lots of help to modernize it and I intend to do so. I have spent a few years lurking here, the mothership, and at 4bt swaps to get the needed info. To get where I want to go is still way out of my comfort zone, but I will get there eventually. I am sure to have many more questions which I will post as I go along. Expect build progress to be slow but sure with most of the early posts involving selection of parts and the acquiring of them...

Edit: found some old photos




The 4x4 badges and the clapped out turn signal indicators are now in the trash, they were far gone. One of the side mirrors broke, but I don't think it was original anyway.



I kept the pie pans, they are already off in the above pic.


The wrong year/model tailgate is on it but it has the manual roll up. If you look in the backseat you can see a while tailgate that is more year correct, but has the electronic rear window. I will probably swap the tailgate and use the white one, but keep the manual roll-up.

[243]

There was a time when all I could think about was putting a 4BT in something, anything. But when the time came, I was behind the curve and Frito trucks went through the roof.

Good luck, you have some nice projects.

[Pablo]

There was a time when all I could think about was putting a 4BT in something, anything. But when the time came, I was behind the curve and Frito trucks went through the roof.

Good luck, you have some nice projects.

Thanks. They are currently "40 footers". The 67 has half the 327 motor in the front seat and is missing most of the engine accessories. Interior is trashed. The 65 has a bit more rust than I would like to see (spoiled in AZ). The interior is pretty rough but parts are all there-- and it was a manual 3 speed. I can see daylight through the floor and the doors (seals are missing). It has a chevy small block swapped in that runs (albeit roughly). They will both need lots of TLC. Bright side is the big pieces are all there and most of the trim is on the 65 (missing the Jeep logo's on the front fenders).

There is some rust on the A-pillar of the 65 that concerns me. I will know more when I get the glass out and can take a good look. If it is too bad, I have the tub to the 65 and can use that. Plus, I am putting an interior roll cage in it, so whatever fix I do to the pillar does not have to be as structurally sound as it would without the roll-bar.



As for the 4bt's-- there was a time last year when prices went down for a bit in California-- after the Hostess bankruptcy. I bought mine back then and carted it back home to AZ. It was a wonder bread truck, I think. Shortly after I bought mine, a guy in California had cut offs with 5 speed NVP transmissions for around three grand. Wish I had seen that before I bought, but I still did ok. Now I have to find a ZF5 or put a Ranger in front of the T-19 I have. Plan A is to get a S5-470 ZF-5 4x4 SMF transmission. I need to do some measuring to see how that ZF is going to fit. I know the T-19 is a bit too short to be ideal (it would pop out somewhere under the dash). As for the transfer case, I am leaning to an Atlas 4 on this build, but that is not set in stone.

More details later...

[jaber]

The pisser is I just dont find them (4BTs) around here...

Sounds like fun, subscribed to watch...

[Landman_MTX]

I've regretted selling my 4bt...
I snagged the complete running frito Van at auction in 2006 for $1600. I sold it and have had whores remorse ever since:(

[Pablo]

The parts collection continues...

Here is a picture of the front seats:




Rear Seats:



The rear seats are troop seats that will face rearward and fold up when not in use. They will mount to a rollbar/crossbar that comes down behind the front seats. Front seat mounts will be tied into the rollbar assembly/frame: as the seats weigh too much to tie them to the sheet metal alone.

Front seats have an integrated 5-point harness. Fortunately, they are retractable like a standard shoulder belt so you are not strapped tight to the seat, as you would be with a racing harness. The use of the shoulder belt and anti-submarine belts are optional.

[Pablo]

So I have continued with the collection of parts.

Got an HE221 6cm turbo:


I am leaning towards a single turbo and this one came up for a really good price. The turbo on the motor now is a Hx30w, also a 6cm -- and a very good turbo for this motor. However, the HE221 spools sooner and has more peak flow. If I go single, I am probably going to stick with it. If I compound, I will use the HX30 as it is a better application for those purposes (stronger shaft and more heat resistant).

[Pablo]

Here is a 14 bolt rear:



This one was off a van. I now know vans have a longer wheel base than the other 14 bolts . Had I known this before I would have steered clear of it. It is 72 inches... so too long.

From what I hear, I can switch the SRW to DRW hubs and save 4 inches in length. If I can get it to 68 inches via the hub switch and still get disk breaks on it for a reasonable price, I may go that route. 68 inches still seems a little long, but it fits with most of the 1 ton front axles that are in the neighborhood of 69 inches.

Otherwise, I will sell it and look for a SRW 14 bolt that is 68 inches to start with. Selling this one may take some time, but apparently these van axles are rarer, so someone with a van or special project might want this one.

[Pablo]

Since I have a day job and limited experience, I have come to the conclusion that I will have to farm out things to get any progress made. Humiliating, but otherwise, I will still be here 2 years from now with rusting parts piling up.

In that spirit, next week the 4bt motor goes in for rehab. They will tear it down and make sure everything is good and reassemble if that is the case. Otherwise, we rebuild, replace and "upgrade" anything that needs it.

After it has a clean bill of health, the mods will start. First up, we are procuring a ZF-5 transmission to mount up behind the engine to replace the T-19. Then we will start getting the A/C, hydroboost, on board air accessory mounts and motor mounts sorted along with the turbo placement and performance enhancements/ pump tuning.

That puts pressure on me to get the 67 and/or 65 drive line pulled so they can test fit the 4bt and get accessories installed that work around any frame/firewall fitment issues. I want the engine close to the firewall. I know I have some room, but the farther back and lower I can mount the motor (within reason) the better for balance and handling, not to mention getting the ZF-5 stick further back to clear under the dash easier.

So this is where it gets interesting/ complicated, and where I could use a bit of bad free advice.

Ideally, I should use the 65 frame and register it as a 65 for emissions, but the weak Ross steering and bracing on the 65 has to go. From the "tribute" Gladiator build, I have seen what has to be done to the 65 and earlier frame to get it switched over to a newer steering box setup (frame crossbar moved), and its major surgery. I don't want that holding up the engine/ powertrain mods, but if I have to do them first-- I guess I have too.

I believe the 67 frame is already the correct geometry for the newer/stronger steering gear and that I would be ok if I mocked and rough fit with the 67 frame and body, and then did the final fitment on the 65 after I got it modified with the newer geometry. If someone could verify that the 67 has the stronger frame and steering, it would be great. I can tell from looking they are different, but I have no idea what happened to the geometry in later years and if the 67 is the same as later years.

After the powertrain is sorted and test fit, I will see what I have to do to get the final 65 frame modified and reinforced to the desired state. I can/may use the 67 frame as a resource too.

Feel free to flame/advise away.

[TrenchFoot]

If the SRW 14 bolt is still wider than you'd like, the cab and chassis 14s are narrower at 63". Looks like you may need a bracket kit to use disks. Search for "C&C 14 bolt" if you're interested.

Good luck, this looks like a sweet build.

[Pablo]

Front Axle on the way. Dana 60 off a 1978 F350:

[eggman918]

First off thank's for the spread sheet offer,I've been using "grimjeeper" and so far so good. what power levels are you looking for from your 4BT? I am running the HE221 in my 1968 F-250 CrewCab 4x4 it's a 8,000Lb truck before we start loading it for a trip and the 4BT moves it along smartly at that weight and it pulls our 4,000Lb trailer with ease as well,I would think you will be happy with the 221 and should be able to forgo the c added complexity and clutter of compounds.I am running a VE pump with stock fuel pin and 3,200 rpm spring with the full power screw in 2 turns from the factory 105HP position and a inter cooler from a early '90 F-800 with a 6BT.I see 20 psi by 1,500 rpm under load with a max boost of 28 psi and never see EGT's above 1,200* pre-turbo it also smokes less than most common rail diesels I see on the road I haven't dynoed it yet but my turbo engineer friend told me that if it is making 25psi@2,500rpm it's in the neighborhood of 185hp/425tq and I think that is fairly accurate as the 4BT is out preforming the custom built 390-4V it replaced in every respect and getting double the mileage doing it.The correct turbo and gearing are the two most important variables in the overall drive-ability and user happiness with a diesel conversion.
This is my 4BT powered rig to give you an idea of what those 'little" 4 bangers will move around.

[Pablo]

First off thank's for the spread sheet offer,I've been using "grimjeeper" and so far so good. what power levels are you looking for from your 4BT? I am running the HE221 in my 1968 F-250 CrewCab 4x4 it's a 8,000Lb truck before we start loading it for a trip and the 4BT moves it along smartly at that weight and it pulls our 4,000Lb trailer with ease as well,I would think you will be happy with the 221 and should be able to forgo the c added complexity and clutter of compounds.I am running a VE pump with stock fuel pin and 3,200 rpm spring with the full power screw in 2 turns from the factory 105HP position and a inter cooler from a early '90 F-800 with a 6BT.I see 20 psi by 1,500 rpm under load with a max boost of 28 psi and never see EGT's above 1,200* pre-turbo it also smokes less than most common rail diesels I see on the road I haven't dynoed it yet but my turbo engineer friend told me that if it is making 25psi@2,500rpm it's in the neighborhood of 185hp/425tq and I think that is fairly accurate as the 4BT is out preforming the custom built 390-4V it replaced in every respect and getting double the mileage doing it.The correct turbo and gearing are the two most important variables in the overall drive-ability and user happiness with a diesel conversion.
This is my 4BT powered rig to give you an idea of what those 'little" 4 bangers will move around.

Nice. What kind of MPG are you getting?

I think my gear calcs came from Grim Jeeper originally, or Jedi Jeeper, I don't remember. My wind resistance, rolling resistance, and incline came from all over the place.

I am hoping to get about 250 HP at the crank @ 1500 feet above sea level out of the 4bt. If I am over 225, I think I am good. I want it to be able to hold 75 on a 7% incline at altitude with a bit to spare. I will be operating in high desert at 5800 feet on trips, so a little bit of reserve power is good.

It is good to hear that turbo works well for you. I hope it works good for me as well, especially at the higher altitude and off-road. It will have an inner-cooler, some pump work on the p-pump, advanced timing, valve springs and a higher governor spring. That is about it. I don't intend to flog it or take it to crazy power levels, but I want to be able to push the pedal down and make it sprint on occasion as well as tow a small expedition style camping trailer. I went with the small turbo as I definitely don't want a smoke spewing dyno queen.

I will be running 37's (probably 37.2) with 4.10 gears and will probably be pushing 6,000+ pounds with the fat axles and the boxed frame and roll cage, unfortunately. With the zf-5 those figures will put me at 1830 RPM at 65 and 2111 at 75, and that looks pretty good to me for how I will actually drive it.

[eggman918]

I turn 2,000@ 70mph if I keep it at or below 2,000 I see 20mpg and the best I've seen is 21.5mpg I'm in Paulden AZ. ~4,500' my truck will pull the I-17 grades at 75 with ease even with the trailer in the pic..I've noticed that weight and grades are not as big a factor as drag and RPM's for mileage,I can hit 80mph+ on the grades empty and that is about the same as it will do on level ground and towing our trailer I see 18 mpg.Not too long ago we moved from Bakersfield CA. and I made 4 trips along I-40 one with a 8,000lb trailer we got 16mpg two with 5,000lb trailers and got just over 16 and one with the trailer shown above and got 18 the run with the 8K trailer I was following the wife in a 26' Ryder truck and we were only going ~55mph so I think that accounts for the 16mpg. When I lived in Bakersfield ~500' elevation I was running a 7cm exhaust housing and was happy but when we moved to AZ. it was a little too smokey on the bottom end,switched to the 6cm housing and it cleared up nicely it even runs clean in Flag. the 221 with the 6cm is a great match for the 4BT in the lase two years I've put 25,000 miles on it from sea level to 8,000' and it's run flawlessly.A 4BT with the same tune as I am running in the F-250 should do what you want with ease and be a blast to drive.

One other thing with the 221 I tend to run close to 90% of the time between 15 and 20 psi so when choosing your inter cooler go as large as you can fit as with those boost numbers you will use all of it you can fit to get the maximum benefit from your turbo even on level ground, start pulling the grades and that big cooler will really shine.
Steve.

[eggman918]

I've been thinking about your power goals and FWIW if your at 225HP at the crank you will be well north of 500 ft/lbs and that will be reached at ~1,800 rpm so your already beyond the torque rating the ZF 5,I am in the process of installing a ZF 5-42 in my Ford due to the fact that I initially went with the M5R2 as it had close to the perfect gear spacing's for the 4BT but moving here killed it. So live and learn now I hope the 5-42 will hold up for me,if I were you and you do end up with level of power run a 5-47 as it's rated for 470 ft/lbs of input.My 4BT @ ~180hp easily out works my 390 it replaced that was rated at ~ 320 hp/427 ft/lbs so if you are between 225 / 250 HP you will be comparable to a 450/500 HP gas big block! Now I'm not trying to change your mind but I don't want you to be where I'm at now in 20,000 miles or so back.....under your rig instead of behind the wheel of it.
Steve.

[Pablo]

eggman:


I am working on acquiring a new ZF5-42. Unfortunately, it is only a 42. On the bright side it is a new old stock 4x2 and will be taken out and put into a used 4x4 case. I will have them strengthen whatever they can when they do so.

If you have the length of your ZF-5 (and if it is a 4x4 or 4x2) that would be a good help though. Everywhere online I have looked does not list the dimensions of the 4x4 unit.

[Pablo]

The Teardown Begins


Before... The old Chevy small block at 75,000 miles... Not sure yet, but I might keep it for the 67 (after a rebuild).



Tweety birds approve of the work...



Got the motor out...


Results:




Two different colors of paint are present. The newer red and it looks like two paint jobs under it of the original minty light green. I say two because I can see some light green overspray on trim pieces that could not have been factory. Lots of rusty bolts and a few that I had to grind off... On the plus side, the sheet metal is not too rusty.

I still have to get the exhaust, front drive shaft and the motor mounts removed. Then I have to remove the parts stored inside.

Next steps are to get the driveline mounts tacked in place with the driveline test fit. The engine accessories and their mounts will be added to the engine and test fit. A radiator, condensor and CAC that fits will be procured. Once it is test fit, it will come out and the total tear down and removal of the body from the frame will occur. Media blasting of the frame is next and then the frame mods will begin.

Among other things, the frame mods should consist of using the newer saginaw pump and mounts (operating on front crossbar), boxing the frame in key areas, cutting off the old style post leaf mounts and moving and converting to the newer leaf mounts. I will be also mocking up locations for the rollbars to attach to the frame and figuring out how I can get a front winch set nicely tied into the front frame's crossbar.

[Pablo]

Progress, but no new pics (yet)

Transmission:
-> Brand new ZF-5 located. It was a 4x2. Swaped its innards into the case of an old 4x4 zf-5. Now mated to engine.

-> Motor mounts and cradle in progress. Test fitting in progress.

Engine Work:
-> 4000 RPM spring in pump
-> Valve springs installed.
-> HE221 Turbo installed.
-> Horton electrical controlled mechanical fan clutch installed.
-> Donaldson offroad air filter on order.
-> Timing advanced
-> P-pump tuned

Transfer Case
->ORD Magnum Doubler and NP205 Ford Driver Drop transfer case ordered and on the way.

[eggman918]

Sounding good!

[Pablo]

Latest updates...

Engine Transmission:
The transmission has been mated up. Here are some pictures I took last week:




The engine tested fine, so it is pretty much going in as is. It is getting some accessory mods:

• 4000 RPM governor springs
• Heavy duty valve springs
• Turbo swap from HX30 to HE221
• Horton electrically activated magnetic fan clutch. I want the power of the mechanical fan, but I want to override its controls when needed too. Plus no slipping viscous clutch to steal MPG and no ridiculous load on the electrical system for a big electric fan.
• Donaldson Off-road air filtration. This is plumbed into the exhaust past the turbo and keeps the dirt going out the back end instead of the air intake. A necessity in Arizona.
• Timing advance and fuel adjusted to match the turbo's output. Shooting for 225 to 250 HP at the crank.
• After stabbing the motor, we will evaluate where to stick the mounts for the AC compressor and a secondary on board air compressor.

Transfer Case
The 205 driver drop ford transfercase and Magnum doubler are set to ship Tuesday Sept 8th.

Axles

The axle build up is set to start the 1st of October. I am ditching the 14 bolt van axle as it is too much work/money to get it to fit. I will probably Craigslist it. Instead, I am getting a brand new one with disk brakes and 4.10 gears from the factory. The rear 14 will be shaved, locked via an ARB locker and will get cro-mo 35 splines.

The front 60 will go under the knife and will get shaved, a zip air locker, 35 splines, and whatever other attention it needs to get it up to speed.