New to the Board and Need Engine Advice

[DaWagon]

First off I want to say to Hello to everyone. I am new to the Full Size Jeep Network. I have a 87 Grand Wagoneer that I refer to as "DaWagon" I am starting a rebuild of the old worn out 360 and I am looking for some advice. Below are my specs and what I have planned and I am looking to make sure this combe will work well with my setup. My concern is that I put all this money and time in to the rebuild and I am not happy with the results. I drive most of the time on the street. Sometimes If I find a muddy back road I will take it, and "DaWagon" is really happy with heavy snow fall here in the North East.

It has a 3" Rough Country Lift and 3.73 gearing, and I running Goodyear Duratrac 31X10.50R15
Here is the planned parts list of the motor:

1) New Pistons-Size depending on what the machine shop does
2) Heads slight ported and polished
3) Compcams XE256 and all the matching Compcams valvetrain stuff(Springs, Retainers, Locks, Timing Chain etc...)
4) Harland Sharp Pedestal Mount Roller Rockers
5) Performer Intake
6) Edelbrock 1406 Carb 600CFM
7) Doug Thorley Tri-Y Headers-Feeding 3" Single Exhaust system from Bj's Offroad

Give your input on this setup. Good, Bad, or Ugly. Thanks.

[lindel]

Personally, I wouldn't spend the money on the roller rockers, but that's just me. Everything else looks pretty good.

[Stuka]

Unless you are going to go all out on doing the rest of the mods that will make use of the roller rockers, I would not bother with them either. Roller rockers are awesome for higher RPM, and they do help with parasitic loss even at lower RPM (assuming they are full roller, not just roller tip).

You should end up with a decent amount more power than stock with what you have planned. I would add a TFI ignition to your list if you don't already have one. Or an HEI if you want to go that route. But the stock ignition would be a bottle neck for that setup.

[The PIG Smith]

Welcome from Fort Wayne, Indiana.

[DaWagon]

No Roller Rockers? That actually sounds good to me because they are not cheap. That will save me money that maybe I coud put into Fuel Injection. Appreciate the feedback.

[lindel]

The money you'd spend on roller rockers wouldn't get you anything near what you paid for them. Far better to put the money into oil mods or FI.

[jaber]

Glad you found us. :-h

Assuming you have a stock dizzy, heres the parts list to upgrade it.

http://fsjeep.homestead.com/TFI_Upgade.html

Cant wait to see it.

[DaWagon]

Glad you found us. :-h

Assuming you have a stock dizzy, heres the parts list to upgrade it.

http://fsjeep.homestead.com/TFI_Upgade.html

Cant wait to see it.

Thanks for the list for TFI upgrade. That is going to be very helpful.

[Blazer3664]

Welcome to the board. :ymhug:

That actually sounds good to me because they are not cheap.

From this I am guessing you want to save $$ where you can without hurting performance. If that is the case, here is a suggestion, take it for what its worth.

2) Heads slight ported and polished

Consider this instead.........

Take a dremel or dye grinder type tool with a flex shaft.......
1) clean up any flashing casting in the ports. A carbide bit and a light hand work best for this. Dont hog off material, just clean up any bits of flashing cast so they dont block/disrupt flow. This shouldnt take all that much. Your goal is just to not have those little jagged bits in there.

How much casting flash there is varies from head to head. Some have a lot, some next to none. If you are lucky someone has already done this for you.

2)again with the flex shaft, polish the exhaust ports, NOT the intake ports. This smooths the flow some, but more important IMHO just makes it gather carbon build-up less. Think of it as a "long term" benefit.

3) do step 1 with the intake as well.

4) gasket match the intake and heads.

If you have or can borrow the tools, this shouldn't cost much (maybe a couple of bits) but time and will give good results. The cam you mentioned, or even a bit bigger wont flow enough to make paying someone to port them (even basic work) cost effective. It takes time to port heads, and anyone worth paying will charge $$$ for their time.
Would you notice a difference? Maybe, if they are good, but it would be minimal and expensive for a street engine.

5) THIS IS THE BIG ONE. GET A GOOD VALVE JOB. If the guides need replaced, DO IT. Don't just have them knurled if you plan to keep this engine long, I have never seen knurling last.

Other than that you seem to be on a good path.


Good luck,
Jim

[whsii]

First off I want to say to Hello to everyone. I am new to the Full Size Jeep Network. I have a 87 Grand Wagoneer that I refer to as "DaWagon" I am starting a rebuild of the old worn out 360 and I am looking for some advice. Below are my specs and what I have planned and I am looking to make sure this combe will work well with my setup. My concern is that I put all this money and time in to the rebuild and I am not happy with the results. I drive most of the time on the street. Sometimes If I find a muddy back road I will take it, and "DaWagon" is really happy with heavy snow fall here in the North East.

It has a 3" Rough Country Lift and 3.73 gearing, and I running Goodyear Duratrac 31X10.50R15
Here is the planned parts list of the motor:

1) New Pistons-Size depending on what the machine shop does
2) Heads slight ported and polished
3) Compcams XE256 and all the matching Compcams valvetrain stuff(Springs, Retainers, Locks, Timing Chain etc...)
4) Harland Sharp Pedestal Mount Roller Rockers
5) Performer Intake
6) Edelbrock 1406 Carb 600CFM
7) Doug Thorley Tri-Y Headers-Feeding 3" Single Exhaust system from Bj's Offroad

Give your input on this setup. Good, Bad, or Ugly. Thanks.

I agree with all that the other post have said, roller rockers are not necessary unless high rpm is required, and all the other things are done.

Having machine shop do a slight porting job can be accomplished by you without a great amount of hassle.

The machine shop will be boring and honing the cylinders for new pistons, they should shave the heads for true-ness, and possibly deck the block. They should do the valves, there are many levels here, but a standard valve job should be sufficient.

I would add balancing. Now balancing is usually for high rpm engines, and with the torque curve for our AMC's which are low RPM engines, some will balk at this. Balancing will make any engine work smoother and all the parts work more together. It cost me less than $100 to get my lowly I6 balanced, you might be looking at $150. Money well spent. Even if you never drive it over 4k, all the parts will work smoother together.

Just my thoughts...

[REDONE]

Well, I dissagree with everyone regarding the roller rockers. Pretty much ALL new engines today come with fully rollerized valving regardless of what the RPM range of the engine is. The main advantage over the stocker stamped rockers is the adjustability though. Even the old AMC non-bridged rockers weren't adjustable. The rocker nut torqued to a shoulder on the stud. I guess you could adjust to reduce preload by shimming but not the other way.

Anyways, the cost may still make it a non-return investment, but I garrantee that there's a lot more than 5bhp hiding in the rockers alone.

[Stuka]

Oh full roller valve trains are superior no doubt, but they are costly. And that's my argument.


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[REDONE]

Oh full roller valve trains are superior no doubt, but they are costly. And that's my argument.


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NO argument here! I only have them on my 304 because of a snaffoo with my 401. I ordered a set of non-self guiding magnums, but my first machine shop for the 401 didn't take enough off the bosses for guide plates. Then jerked me around on some other stuff and I dumped him. Before I found Western Engine Supply (also a full service Machine Shop in Denver that I fully endorse) I just said screw it and I ordered another set that were self guiding. This left me with two sets since the first set was outside the return window. I used the self guiding on the 401 and kept the others until I discovered that my 79 360 was actually a 71-72 304 with guided pushrods.

Even so, if you followed my build thread (I know you have Stuka, but for others reading this) I drove my truck to Ouray and back (1250mi each way) with what I thought was a tired 360 that struggled getting over the passes when running at it's best. Got back, changed the valve seals, rockers and replaced the intake gasket (only because I dropped a pushrod) and now I can burn rubber in 2nd gear! It pulled 18in before and 19 after so I don't think I fixed a significant vac leak, and this is just my most recent experience.

While not directly related but definitely relevent, I've found that Chrylser A and B blocks (I usta race a couple PowerWagons and a RamCharger in Tuff Trucks) both wake the *F* up with quality rockers. I don't know if GM and Ferd are the same but it seems AMC is.

I want to post the link to comp cams page about the magnums but before I do, I want to point out that I think the REAL power gains come from the adjustability of the rockers and I want to point out the differences between the magnums and the full rollers.

There is a lot of variable in the valve train; cam lift, pushrod length and diameter, and rocker ratio are the obvious and most important ones, but there's lots of other variables ranging from variance in the lifter internal spring pressure and oil passage bore to the manufacturing variance in STAMPED rockers. Believe it or not these variances can account for up to a 1/10th of an inch of valve movement!

Well crap. I'm tired, it's after midnight and I'm going to bed. Weigh you budget against performance and longevity and do whatever you feel is right. There will be no guilt trips from me for going with stamped bridged rockers, but I peel out with a stock cam and a bastard 304 repower in my J-10. \m/

http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-%27 ... %27-0.aspx

[lindel]

What you've probably found is the ratio on the rockers is higher than stock. More lift to the valves, etc. The bang for the buck is my issue with them. You don't usually get enough value for your dollar.

[Ironwolf]

If you don't mind running premium gas, higher compression will benefit you and will cost you nothing extra in the pistons. For the roller rockers, spend the money elsewhere first. If you finish up and have extra money floating around, the rockers are easy to install on a Saturday. With that being said, have the pistons notched for the valves. You might not need them now but will save you a lot of headache when you decide to maximize your cam/rocker setup.

Just my 0.02.

[Stuka]

Changing the rocker ratio has the same effect of putting a higher lift cam in, only a lot less work. And with the 304 having very small valves compared to a 360/401, there is a more noticeable effect.

That's not to say it would not help on the other engines, because it does.

And like mentioned above, rockers can be changed out later provided the pistons have the clearance for it.


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