Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

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Fast79Chief
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Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by Fast79Chief »

Hey FSJ brothers,
I'm want to convert to Part-Time 4wd on my 79 Chief. I have the factory 1339 T case and the Dana 44 front axle combo. I know some of you are familiar with exactly what I have. I'm curious if a set of Warn Manual Locking Hubs will allow me to run in Part-Time after the install? I realize the front drive shaft will still be turning all the time even after the hub install. Not intersted in going into the T case again at this time, will the hubs alone do the trick?

Thanks for your input.
Fast
1979 Cherokee Chief S, V8, MSD Pro Billet Distributor with New Factory Ignition Box (are these 2 even supposed to work together?), HEI Wires, Edelbrock 1406, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3.54 gears, Tru-Trac Locker in the rear, Turbo 400, New Quadratrac, Dual gas tanks, new 32 x 11.50's, Big 9000 winch, Homemade 2.5" full length exhaust, Custom Headlight Harness, Custom front bumper working, Custom Rear Swing-out Bumper, Class V receiver hitch ... and a lot of work to do yet. :)
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tgreese
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Re: Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by tgreese »

You can put the transfer case in emergency drive and unlock the hubs, and only the rear wheels will be driven. I presume that's what you are asking. There is a potent risk of switching out of e-drive with the hubs unlocked, or unlocking the hubs in full time. This will likely damage the transfer case.

If I may, this does not make sense to me. What do you expect to gain?
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
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Fast79Chief
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Re: Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by Fast79Chief »

Very simple ... want to reduce the amount of 'driven' components therefore increasing fuel mileage. Same as any other desire to not drive all 4 wheels ALL the time. 2wd saves wear and tear and gas, when 4wd is not needed.
That is what I expect to gain.
Must every one of my posts be logically challenged?
This is a very simple, straightforward inquiry. We have been adding 'lockable' front hubs since the late 60's ... I'm asking if that approach would 'free wheel' the two front wheels that are now under constant drive. FACT - in Emergency mode or Not ... they are now under constant drive.
Thanks.
1979 Cherokee Chief S, V8, MSD Pro Billet Distributor with New Factory Ignition Box (are these 2 even supposed to work together?), HEI Wires, Edelbrock 1406, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3.54 gears, Tru-Trac Locker in the rear, Turbo 400, New Quadratrac, Dual gas tanks, new 32 x 11.50's, Big 9000 winch, Homemade 2.5" full length exhaust, Custom Headlight Harness, Custom front bumper working, Custom Rear Swing-out Bumper, Class V receiver hitch ... and a lot of work to do yet. :)
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tgreese
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Re: Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by tgreese »

JMO - I am allowed to express it. I worked at the second largest Jeep dealership in the USA in the '70s, and I think you will see very little fuel mileage gain from part-time. I have not owned one of these Jeeps, but I kinda think the part-time kit is for-the-most-part snake oil. I also think that you don't really need Warn hubs on an open front axle with conventional 4WD, and that the "need" for them as standard equipment is mostly manufactured.

The components will still be turning. True you will reduce wear some, but the front axle only plays a major role in traction when conditions warrant 4WD. Weight transfers to the rear on acceleration, and the rear axle does most of the work.

In most cases, the front axle of 4WD vehicles is much lighter than the rear, because it does not need to be as hefty. Look at the other chain-driven transfer cases - only the QT has that huge belt, because it drives the rear wheels along with the front. Most of the NP transfer cases have a much lighter chain because the front axle does not do much, even in full-time mode.

Your understanding is correct. What you want to do will be fine if you avoid the bad situation I referred to above. Make sure anyone else who drives the Jeep understands the issue too. Make sure some curious (or malicious) child does not turn your hubs when the Jeep is parked.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Fast79Chief
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Re: Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by Fast79Chief »

Thank you Tim ... you have once again reaffirmed your superior knowledge on all things Jeep. lol
I use this forum to seek knowledge and share my experiences with a new addition to my collection. Don't let my questions on here mislead you, nor should you ASSUME that you are responding to someone who has forgotten all his mechanical knowledge hard earned since the 1960's ... we are not all newbies to the 'wrench' Tim. Again lol. I would suggest to you that you bone up on the Quadratrac system as designed from the factory for the 1979 FSJ. Comparing this system to LESSER systems voids a lot of your input.
Releasing the front hubs/wheels from the burdon of constant driving force equates to a SERIOUS reduction of energy. Especially the full size Dana 44, steel wheels, and heavy 32 x 11.50-15 tires.
Not to further debate this with YOU Tim ... I welcome input from other members who can simply answer the question, "Can this Dana 44 factory front axle be free wheeled as other Fulltime Dana 44's can?"
P.S. no "part-time" kit was ever mentioned by me in my original posts. I did SAY "I am not interested in going into the transfer case again at this time." Read.
Thanks
Last edited by Fast79Chief on Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
1979 Cherokee Chief S, V8, MSD Pro Billet Distributor with New Factory Ignition Box (are these 2 even supposed to work together?), HEI Wires, Edelbrock 1406, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3.54 gears, Tru-Trac Locker in the rear, Turbo 400, New Quadratrac, Dual gas tanks, new 32 x 11.50's, Big 9000 winch, Homemade 2.5" full length exhaust, Custom Headlight Harness, Custom front bumper working, Custom Rear Swing-out Bumper, Class V receiver hitch ... and a lot of work to do yet. :)
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tgreese
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Re: Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by tgreese »

I am trying to be friendly and polite and non-confrontational. I'm sorry if you do not read my reply that way.

Well, somebody has to have measured this. I would suggest (and my intuition says) that in situations where a mileage gain might be seen, you won't see any difference if the wheels are still driving the axle. You would only hope to see a difference if the axle were allowed to idle as in a true part time kit. You are still driving the wheels and axle with the engine, just now it's the pavement that's driving the wheels and hubs instead of the transfer case plus pavement.

You could do the community a service by testing your notion quantitatively. I trust you are well capable of coming up with a scenario to test this - ie, top off, drive a couple hundred miles to a destination at the same altitude, top off, drive back, and top off again. Dunno, maybe my experience and intuition is wrong - would not be the first time.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Fast79Chief
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 7:10 am
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania

Re: Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by Fast79Chief »

The 'selectable' hubs will effectively disconnect the hub assembly FROM the axle. That is the purpose of a Selectable hub. Yes, the front input shaft and carrier gears and axles will still be driven by the transfer case (until the internal transfer case modifications can be made, if I decide to) but the hubs and wheels assemblies would be taken out of the loop by a Selectable hub. I used them on my 8 lug Dana 44 in my 72 K20 and like them better than the Chevy factory selectable hubs. That vehicle came off the assembly line in 72 with Selectable hubs, but this 79 Chief did not.
Just want to see if I can apply the same hubs to this gas eater.
Thanks.
1979 Cherokee Chief S, V8, MSD Pro Billet Distributor with New Factory Ignition Box (are these 2 even supposed to work together?), HEI Wires, Edelbrock 1406, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3.54 gears, Tru-Trac Locker in the rear, Turbo 400, New Quadratrac, Dual gas tanks, new 32 x 11.50's, Big 9000 winch, Homemade 2.5" full length exhaust, Custom Headlight Harness, Custom front bumper working, Custom Rear Swing-out Bumper, Class V receiver hitch ... and a lot of work to do yet. :)
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Stuka
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Re: Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by Stuka »

Fast79Chief wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:21 am Thank you Tim ... you have once again reaffirmed your superior knowledge on all things Jeep. lol
I use this forum to seek knowledge and share my experiences with a new addition to my collection. Don't let my questions on here mislead you, nor should you ASSUME that you are responding to someone who has forgotten all his mechanical knowledge hard earned since the 1960's ... we are not all newbies to the 'wrench' Tim. Again lol. I would suggest to you that you bone up on the Quadratrac system as designed from the factory for the 1979 FSJ. Comparing this system to LESSER systems voids a lot of your input.
Releasing the front hubs/wheels from the burdon of constant driving force equates to a SERIOUS reduction of energy. Especially the full size Dana 44, steel wheels, and heavy 32 x 11.50-15 tires.
Not to further debate this with YOU Tim ... I welcome input from other members who can simply answer the question, "Can this Dana 44 factory front axle be free wheeled as other Fulltime Dana 44's can?"
P.S. no "part-time" kit was ever mentioned by me in my original posts. I did SAY "I am not interested in going into the transfer case again at this time." Read.
Thanks
Ok, you need to stop with attacking people that are giving requested advice. For whatever reason this is an ongoing theme from you. Cut it. If you don't like the advice, that's fine. You are not required to use any advice offered.

As for your original question, yes, you can put manual locking hubs in, and yes, you run the risk of destroying your t-case if it pops out of e-drive. The reason old part time 4wd vehicles had manual locking hubs is because driving them for extended periods with them locked, but in 2wd would result in overheating the transfer-case. Selectable hubs will prevent wear and tear ONLY IF the t-case is part time also. A QT in e-drive will continue to power that front axle, all the time.

And no, you will not see any big difference in fuel economy (its been tried, and tested, some saw a few tenths of a mpg difference). If you don't believe me, look at current day 4x4's which have to meet very tight fuel economy regulations. The ONLY one with manual hubs is the super duty, which does not have to meet any fuel economy regulations because of its GVW. But most vehicles from Toyota, Ram, GM, Jeep, etc spin the front axle all the time. Some have an axle disconnect so the drive shaft doesn't spin, but the axle shafts still do. Heck, a large number of cars and CUVs today are AWD where everything spins all the time.

Also, the front tires will still cause the exact same amount of drag in 2wd as they will in 4wd. The drag will just be transferred to which ever tires are powering the vehicle. And as the tire/wheel drag is significantly more than the axle shafts or carrier, disconnecting the axle has very little impact on economy. Drag grows exponentially as the diameter of the rotating object increases. So an axle shaft may be heavy, but it has significantly less drag than a tire and wheel because it has a 1.3" diameter compared to a 30"+ diameter of the tire and wheel. And if you are moving, the drag induced by the tire and wheel is being applied to the vehicle.
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Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
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Fast79Chief
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Re: Dana 44 Manual Hub Conversion ?

Post by Fast79Chief »

Wow ... just wow. Lesson learned stuka. I do not know what I was thinking. I will never again disagree with or have a differing opinion based on my experience, or anything I've seen, read or heard ... with Tim. I don't know what I was thinking when I was asked by Tim "what I expected to achieve?" ... and I foolishly stated my intentions for my post. I should have just ACCEPTED Tim's word on the subject and considered the subject, topic, my interest in my front axle, a closed subject forever as soon as Tim responded. I am a slow learner, I admit ... but I now realize that there are certain people who have been a member on this forum for so long that, if they respond to a question ... that's it, you don't need ANYONE else's input, you got the absolute final word on it, and no other member of this forum need comment or share their experiences. Thank you Stuka and Tim for sharing what you guys know on this subject and for dealing with my independent personality, and need to hear other opinions. No harm intended, ... and I won't be putting the Selectable hubs on my axle, you have convinced me it's not a good idea. Appreciate your knowledge very much. Thank you both.
1979 Cherokee Chief S, V8, MSD Pro Billet Distributor with New Factory Ignition Box (are these 2 even supposed to work together?), HEI Wires, Edelbrock 1406, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3.54 gears, Tru-Trac Locker in the rear, Turbo 400, New Quadratrac, Dual gas tanks, new 32 x 11.50's, Big 9000 winch, Homemade 2.5" full length exhaust, Custom Headlight Harness, Custom front bumper working, Custom Rear Swing-out Bumper, Class V receiver hitch ... and a lot of work to do yet. :)
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