Planning a 360 motor build (1st fire and break in DONE!!!)

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dodgerammit
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

Summit also offers a 500cfm version. Wondering if I should go that route. Everything I am wanting to do with the motor seems to point toward the smaller carb.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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letank
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by letank »

dodgerammit wrote:Summit also offers a 500cfm version. Wondering if I should go that route. Everything I am wanting to do with the motor seems to point toward the smaller carb.
Carb questions will generate as much debatte as the oil question... you can read more from the mothership with a good analysis by Ristow, Rreed and the usual suspects

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=154789
Michel
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85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

Thank you for that read...

Some key points from the posts:

"Anyways, I'm liking this thing. A lot. It has SOOO much low end grunt it's not even funny. It accelerates so cleanly and refined compared to the Edelbrock. Where the Edelbrock would jump up and pull the front end up and haul a** down the road when going through the gears in a spirited fashion, the Holley just kind of "goes" and you don't notice it. Hard to explain. Like they E was trying to prove it's a bada** and the H just doesn't have to. Similar to when I swapped out the no-name ignition module for an AC Delco a long time ago. Anyways, w/ the Holley you just kind of gracefully and w/o effort get up to speed quickly. It just feels so much more refined in the way it drives. I love it."


Given my gearing and the rpm range the 727 is gonna be at, this looks good:

"I've settled down my jacka**ing around to normal driving now to see how the MPG is going to go. It is a little difficult because this thing brings sooo much low end grunt to the table I find myself leaving it in higher gears at lower speeds and being able to accelerate when traffic picks up w/o down-shifting."

Mileage updates indicate a gain.

Looks like I'm on the right thought process for what I'm wanting.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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weeegoneeer
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by weeegoneeer »

Looks like an awesome carb! A few hundo cheaper than the holley, common parts, and not over carbed.
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

Yeah, I'm laying the groundwork for what parts I want.

Cam company has been decided. Engle.
There are a couple of different profiles that have my interest.
Will call and talk with someone before I finalize the decision.

Edelbrock Performer intake is a given. From what I'm seeing the Summit carb is non-egr. May swap up the intake plans, unless there is a creative way to run egr still. Maybe a port in the phenolic spacer? Then again, I'm just probably overthinking. EGR or not isn't a deal breaker either way.

Wiseco -21cc forged pistons. Some minor head surfacing should net me 9:1-9.5:1 compression.

Summit M2008 500 cfm carburetor

Still need to find a definitive answer to lifters/valve springs. One cam has .501 lift on the exhaust side. This is right at max for spring binding issues from what I've read on AMC forums. May go. May not. Studs and roller rockers are on the list. Heads machined for better valves with no umbrella seals.

Probably going with stock style timing chain as double rollers just wear faster.

I'm getting well-versed concerning issues with the timing cover/cam/dizzy gears, etc. Will probably check the cam and timing set myself before the machine shop even gets the Wag. Once they tear it apart, I'll probably request the timing cover and check those things myself.

Probably will get the torque plate bore/hone job. Do it right and do it once.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

92 Wrangler Islander 4.0/32RH/231 D30/D35 RHD
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

Additional list of items for purchasing

Pistons-Wiseco Forged .030 flat tops (8.6cc dish volume)-Edit. Can't do these. Too high of compression for cam setup. sticking with 21cc ones and some decking for 9:1 compression

Oil pump kit with .007 gasket thickness
Fel pro gasket kit
Build guide such as TSM, BJ's AMC book, etc to have for machine shop.
Last edited by dodgerammit on Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

Found a phenolic spacer with egr port: https://www.jegs.com/i/Trans-Dapt/969/2582/10002/-1 Added to list of stuff to get.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

Okay. Started ordering this last week. Bulltear's Legend Valve covers (prob about a month out according to customer service).

Just today, dropped some change on these items:
GMB water pump 110-1040P
Hayden 2705 thermal fan clutch
Summit Racing SUM-M08500VS 500cfm carb
Spacer w/Vacuum port for pcv/egr
Edelbrock 3731 performer/egr intake (ebay had one for $70 less and instant shipping. Anywhere else would have been late Sept/early Oct delivery), Edelbrock 41153 Classic series black oval cleaner (ebay to the rescue again. $50 less than anywhere else)
Other goodies for installation.

Also Stainless oil fill tube and priming tool from BJ's.

Price for stuff so far $1339.50. Want to keep a total for anyone considering a rebuild, so they have a ballpark idea of expense.
Still will need to order cam and lifters $300-$350, forged pistons $500, roller rockers and pushrods, and engine gasket set along with bearings (machine shop will prob do those).
Of course, machining, custom work will be a factor as well.

Cam should be ordered this week. Prob going with Jones Racing 202/204:
Cam# AMC360, H64307-65295-112
202/204 @.050"
.307"/.295" Lobe Lift
.491"/.472" Valve Lift
112 LSA

Strongly considering edelbrock's true roller 7818 timing set. Review on Summit states that oil slot lines up with cam hole. Guess I'll find out.

Probably also going to do HRC oil pump gears and mid plate from Bulltear.

Then, I guess the engine shop will get the Jeep and I'll go from there.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by kansasboy001 »

dodgerammit wrote:Found a phenolic spacer with egr port: https://www.jegs.com/i/Trans-Dapt/969/2582/10002/-1 Added to list of stuff to get.
That spacer has a pcv port which your summit carb has. You do not need the spacer.

You can do egr with the summit carb using the ported vacuum for the distributor as a source. Only difference is that a egr port will be drilled higher into the venturi to apply vacuum at a higher throttle position than spark in order to not have a stumble on acceleration. You can get by this with a vacuum delay valve before the egr. Also the carb would need to be re jetted in cruise to compensate for the egr making the mixture more rich.
1983 Cherokee Laredo. 360/ 727/ np228/ Junkyard 7427 TBI/ Msd ignition
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

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kansasboy001 wrote:
dodgerammit wrote:Found a phenolic spacer with egr port: https://www.jegs.com/i/Trans-Dapt/969/2582/10002/-1 Added to list of stuff to get.
That spacer has a pcv port which your summit carb has. You do not need the spacer.

You can do egr with the summit carb using the ported vacuum for the distributor as a source. Only difference is that a egr port will be drilled higher into the venturi to apply vacuum at a higher throttle position than spark in order to not have a stumble on acceleration. You can get by this with a vacuum delay valve before the egr. Also the carb would need to be re jetted in cruise to compensate for the egr making the mixture more rich.

Okay. Holding the carb right now. 3 ports on the front corner opposite the linkage. A small port and large port feed just through the outer wall and into the void that will be over the intake opening. According to instructions, these are the PCV and full manifold vacuum. So, I guess I just run the pcv hose around to the rear on the intake?

One feeds into the venturi just under the butterfly. Distributor advance is what the instructions say. So, this is where a tee would be used and a delay valve before the egr?

Also see a threaded plug on the rear that can be removed. Feeds just like the first two ports. Labeled as power brakes.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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tgreese
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by tgreese »

You understand the difference between ported vacuum and manifold vacuum?
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

Ported from venturi. Manifold from.... um..... :P intake manifold.


Reading more from ifsja:

An engine with a functioning EGR valve and no plugged-up passages in the EGR system, will not idle with an EGR valve connected to manifold vacuum.

Now it is possible you confused manifold vacuum with port vacuum. Port vacuum signal is generated via Burneulli's Principle in the carb's venturi. The larger the volume of air flowing through the carb., the stronger the vac. signal. At idle there is very little air flowing through the carb and the vac. signal is very small. Basically no vacuum. At wide-open throttle (WOT) and high RPM, the port vacuum signal is strongest.

The EGR valve's diaphragm is hooked ultimately to port vacuum. At idle there is no signal and the valve is closed. At WOT, the valve would be fully open except there is a calibrated vac. switch inline which is referenced to manifold vacuum and will dump the port vac. signal, closing the EGR valve, when the engine is under a significant load.

Okay. The bolded part above. Is this the cto switch at the rear of the intake? Or is it the delay switch on air cleaner housing?

Image

Mine is hooked up as the above image shows. This is with the 2150.

The summit has a single port in the venturi that is spec'd for the dizzy advance. According to kansasboy, I'll tee into this using a delay valve (little round disc thingy on vacuum lines) and use it to allow egr.

My 1st question is this: Where exactly does the 2150 pull the egr vacuum from? Is it pulling from the venturi? The port looks physically low for that, but I've not had the carb off of the Jeep to actually look at it.

Secondly, would I basically hook up the egr on my new intake the same way as shown above (the way it is currently routed through the delay and CTO)?
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by tgreese »

Mmm, unless it's way more sophisticated than me, I think what you quote above is wrong. AFAIK the only difference between manifold and ported vacuum is ported vacuum comes from a port in the venturi that is physically blocked by the throttle plate when the throttle is closed. Ported (aka distributor) vacuum goes to zero at idle. Off idle, it's the same as manifold vacuum. Has nothing to do with the venturi size or Bernoulli or whatever. The throttle plate is like a gate valve that shuts off the vacuum at idle. If you hold a carburetor in your hands and look at the venturis, you can see the port where the vacuum comes from.

I've always just used the ports for whatever is most convenient to them in terms of plumbing, as long as I get the right category of vacuum - manifold or ported. All your devices need to connect to either ported (zero vacuum at idle) or manifold (stays high vacuum at idle) but you are free to connect them however you like. Both the brakes and PCV need vacuum all the time, so they go to any connection that's not ported. The brakes typically get a big pipe because they can suddenly demand a lot of volume? But it's the same signal - manifold vacuum - as runs the emissions devices, just a bigger pipe.

Usually you have ported vacuum going to the distributor when the engine is warmed up, so that vacuum advance is reduced at idle. This makes the burn cooler at idle, reducing emissions. You don't need the power from lots of advance at idle, so it's ok. The CTO sends manifold vacuum to the distributor when the engine is cold, to prevent hesitation and stalling - improving "drivability" when the engine is cold.

EGR gets ported vacuum typically, because the EGR valve should be closed at idle to prevent a rough idle. Adding exhaust to the idle mixture leads to a poor idle. Open when running, closed at idle.

All this other stuff is meant to modify the performance of these basic functions so they can add more exhaust gas, or retard the spark more, without adverse effects on "drivability."
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by tgreese »

dodgerammit wrote:...At WOT, the EGR valve would be fully open except there is a calibrated vac. switch that is part of the CTO which is referenced to manifold vacuum and will dump the port vac. signal, closing the EGR valve, when the engine is under a significant load.
That's the claim. Has to be part of the CTO, if it functions as claimed. I don't think the TVS on the air cleaner is a delay, but a thermal vacuum switch? In that case it would block vacuum when the engine is cold - "drivablility" again. The only delay I see in your stripped-down diagram is in the TAC and vacuum door circuit.

If you are not going to use the spark CTO, you want manifold vacuum to the distributor all the time.

What does the original diagram look like? Not sure all your changes are well-advised.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

I no longer use duraspark. I run MSD. Ported vacuum = good signal for dizzy. CTO in the mix made tuning impossible.

Writeup I followed with good results: http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtop ... park+sucks

Neither blend door in the cleaner function. I have them tied open.

I let the engine warm till I can knock the throttle from the fast idle cam. Not an issue about warming up. The crappy reman carb with the worn throttle shaft is a bigger problem.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

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More coming from Summit. Edelbrock true roller timing set and jet kit for the carb. $147

Tomorrow will be the cam. Decided to go with Engle K5052 which is a single pattern 209* @ .050 and .489 lift. Couldn't get a positive answer on the lobe width of the Jones cam. A cam spreadsheet from AMCforum shows all K series Engle cams being designed for the .904 lifter. The two Jones cams shown are chevy/ford spec lobes.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

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Cam ordered. $175 Lifters $150 Total parts cost up to $1811.50.

Got spec'd a nice set of single springs. Engle 993s. 1.8" height, 1.47 OD, 1.07 ID, 125# seat pressure, 280# at .50 lift open pressure-meaning I'll be about 170-175# open.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

More from bulltear:

Oil pump rebuild kit with relief cut gears, assortment of gaskets with differing thickness, and midplate kit $92
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

AMC specific guide plates for roller rocker setup $30.00
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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Re: Planning a 360 motor build (parts gathering phase)

Post by dodgerammit »

Another Summit order:
Valves, Howards springs, keepers, retainers, fluoroelastomer positive seals, Scorpion roller rockers. $551
Engle was out of the 993 springs, so found a similar spec spring.
Total cost for parts is now at $2484.50

Gasket kit, Pistons, freeze plugs, and rocker pushrods and studs should be all that is left.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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