4wd ignorance

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XJChad
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by XJChad »

Ok thanks. Ive never ran locking hubs before. There are several name brands out there, has anyone had better luck with one over the other, as far as strength and durability?

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1989 Grand Wagoneer, 4" Rusty's Lift, LS 5.3L swap (in progress), 4L60e, NP241c.
1991 Grand Wagoneer, all stock, a work in progress, for sale soon.
1982 Cherokee Laredo, 360ci, aluminum intake, Edelbrock carb, HEI, w/32x11.50x15, warn 8000, Dana 44/AMC 20
2001 Cherokee Sport, Old Man Emu lift (worn out), front/rear C4x4 bumpers, Smittybuilt 10,000 winch, 31x10.50x15, Edge Tuner kit w/throttle body & AFE cold air, Gibson exhaust-my daily driver until the '89 is finished.
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Stuka
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by Stuka »

I have always run OEM's (My favorite) or Warns. Had good luck with both.
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chevelleguy
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by chevelleguy »

I have the premium Warns on mine, working good for the last 10yrs. I see a 2 mpg difference between locked and unlocked.

New Process called the 229 a 'full time/part time' transfer case.
David
'83 Wag Limited, 360/727/pinned 229/D44 front/AMC20,lockrite,rear/6" BJ lift w/ 35/12.50/15 M/T Baja MTZ/ Pro-Jection EFI.

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FSJunkie
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by FSJunkie »

If you have manual locking hubs, make sure to engage them periodically and drive around, even just in 2wd, to get the axle moving to lubricate everything.

Jeep recommended 10 miles every month.

I don't notice a lag on power with the hubs engaged unless the axle is cold or I'm trying to do high speeds.

Warn offered automatic "Lock-o-matics" for a while back in the 50's and 60's. Their operation was pretty complex. Something about automatically locking whenever the transfer case applied torque to the axle, but not locking in reverse unless manually locked.
1972 Wagoneer: 360 2V, THM-400, D20, D30 closed knuckle, D44 Trac-lok 3.31.
1965 Rambler Ambassador: 327 4V, BW M-10 auto, AMC 20 3.15.
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XJChad
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by XJChad »

Thanks for the insight guys. I have been leaning towards the Warn premiums.

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1989 Grand Wagoneer, 4" Rusty's Lift, LS 5.3L swap (in progress), 4L60e, NP241c.
1991 Grand Wagoneer, all stock, a work in progress, for sale soon.
1982 Cherokee Laredo, 360ci, aluminum intake, Edelbrock carb, HEI, w/32x11.50x15, warn 8000, Dana 44/AMC 20
2001 Cherokee Sport, Old Man Emu lift (worn out), front/rear C4x4 bumpers, Smittybuilt 10,000 winch, 31x10.50x15, Edge Tuner kit w/throttle body & AFE cold air, Gibson exhaust-my daily driver until the '89 is finished.
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by fulsizjeep »

Krista and I have been running Mile Marker locking hubs that have the plastic centers in two Waggys for several years with no issues. I see BJs does not carry them any more but the MM premium stainless hubs are priced right for me.
http://www.bjsoffroad.com/prod-1397.htm
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NoLaFSJ
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by NoLaFSJ »

I came back to this thread to re-read it, and I want to say thanks again to everyone for the great information! I'm starting to understand more of this mythical 4X4 talk :P

While I was scanning my local craigslist section this morning I came across an ad selling an "Aussie Locker for Dana 44." Here is how the listing read:


"Scammers don't bother.

$225 OBO

I am selling an Aussie Locker for a Dana 44 with 30-spline shafts. This is a drop-in style locker so no need to have your gears reset by a shop.

It is new in the box- never used and never even installed.

Tags: Jeep Wrangler CJ YJ TJ XJ JK Wagoneer Cherokee 4x4 Ford Bronco D44 F250 F150 Blazer"


I have heard that a locker helps a lot when dealing with our wonderful Louisiana mud. I'm not too familiar with what to look for in a locker and this post sparked my interest. So...

From what I understand, a locker will "lock" the differential, essentially creating a "fixed" connection between the two axle shafts which makes them rotate at the same speed. This creates a "positive traction" situation opposed to the factory operation where each axle is allowed to rotate independently, which improves drive-ability in high traction turning situations. Please clear up any misunderstandings I have about what a locker does.

I can see the advantage of the locker when you're in the mud, but it doesn't seem like a locker is ideal for street driving, which in all reality is 99% of the driving that my Wag sees. What would be the real-world street driving consequences of installing a locker like the one above in my vehicle? Would I be able to live with it? Are there other types of lockers that don't cause these undesirable effects? Am I better off with some other modification to improve traction in these type situations?

Thanks for any insight you guys can offer!
Brian

1990 Grand Wagoneer
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NoLaFSJ
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by NoLaFSJ »

Also, I realize that this topic has evolved and may be better suited for the Offroad FSJ Tech forum. Admins, feel free to re-located this thread if so desired. Thanks.
Brian

1990 Grand Wagoneer
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jaber
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by jaber »

Lets see if I understand this...

Yes, you have it correct on operation.

There are a few styles of lockers. Some are full lock, some are air or electrically engaged and some are automatic.

Full time can be factory, add in, or some guys weld the spider gears (smaller set of gears in the differential). Will chirp the inside tires on sharp turns. More binding/ wear and tear on components if running high traction conditions.

No experience with the air or elec lockers.

The automatics are set up to replace the spider gears, and when coasting, they allow them selves to "ratchet" giving slip between the wheels. When power is applied to it, they lock together. Have installed one of these on a guys toyo and it worked very well. It took the company 3 tries to get us the right one( yes I installed it 3 times, but that was 5 years ago, and a warehouse supplier) but once it was right, it was a nice upgrade to a 2wd truck.

Hope my ramblin helps a little... :roll:
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strvger
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by strvger »

i'm a locker believer. all mine except for my recently acquired 66 waggy have them. i'm looking for a locker for it now. and i prefer the non-powered type myself instead of the air or electric ones. just fewer things to break with the automatic ones, imho. i'm running Detroit's now and like them lots. had a LockRite once and it was just too noisy when turning, especially parking.
jeep'n in the land of 2 seasons... winter and getting ready for winter.
1966 cj5a, 134 f-head, safari windscreen, 3 on-the-tree, saturn od, 4.27's with a detroit locker in back, soon getting a 151 'iron duke'
1966 wagoneer, 327 vigilante (2bbl), 3 on-the-tree, 3.73's, looking for a detroit locker for it.

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NoLaFSJ
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by NoLaFSJ »

Sounds like an automatic style locker, which I believe the one above is, would be best for my scenario. Now if I was to only buy one locker, would it make more sense to put it in the front axle or the rear? I would think installing it in the rear would give the most advantage since the rear is (hopefully) the last end of the rig to come out of the muddy area. Can you even put an automatic locker in the front with the "slug" type hubs? I don't think I would have any reason to lock both the front and rear axles, just curious.
Brian

1990 Grand Wagoneer

strvger
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by strvger »

all of mine are in the rear. i drive on snow and ice 6 months out of the year and i prefer a locker over an open diff for sure.
they work in the front axle if you have locking hubs. that way the locker won't work until the axle hubs are locked in.
jeep'n in the land of 2 seasons... winter and getting ready for winter.
1966 cj5a, 134 f-head, safari windscreen, 3 on-the-tree, saturn od, 4.27's with a detroit locker in back, soon getting a 151 'iron duke'
1966 wagoneer, 327 vigilante (2bbl), 3 on-the-tree, 3.73's, looking for a detroit locker for it.

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Mdcptman
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by Mdcptman »

Brian,
I dont have springs in mine either. There r these sleeves with a slit that take up space where the springs would go. i think its factory since several people with late model GWs that I know have run into the same thing. the service manual shows a spring, but maybe that was covered in a later update. Idk. I know I have found them in several GWs. I just put mine together like it came apart. It works fine.
88 Grand Wagoneer
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Edelbrock 2131, non-EGR
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Dual exhaust
MSD 6A
TFI conversion
Rusty's 2" Add-a-Leaf kit
31 x 10.5 LT15 Goodyear Wrangler Authority Tires
S-10 Steering Box Mod


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will e
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by will e »

Ah, the old locker question and which axle to put it in.

There is an ongoing debate on which axle is 'better' to have a locker.
There is also an agreement that if you can have a locker on both axles that is better than just one locker on either axle.

In the rear axle you can put any kind of locker you want. An 'always' locked rear axle will cause some weirdness around corners and snow but many people have done it and say it is very manageable. I have not. An automatic locker (aussie, detriot, etc) will also work well in a rear axle. They will try to let the rear tires turn corners at different speeds. Some people like the 'always' locked over the 'automatic' locker because it is more predictable. Others like the 'automatic' locker because if the ability to differentiate the rear wheel speeds. There are several types of automatic lockers to choose from, especially for a d44. There is also a 'limited slip' which is almost a locker. They typically use clutch plates to try to keep the rear wheels at the same speed but allow the differentiation around corners. But unlike the other types of lockers they can also let the wheel with the most traction slip. Also, the clutches wear out. And finally the selectable locker allows you to select if it is open and operating like a normal rear axle or 'locked' where the two axles will spin at the same speed. In my opinion the selectable lockers are the best choice but they come at a premium price. They require some kind of operation (cable, electric, air) and these systems add to the complexity and can break. (When they do break it is almost always in the 'open' position). You also have to remember to turn them on/off.

The front axle can also be fitted with any of the types mentioned above. The complicating factor is what kind of transfer case you have and how you use it. As mentioned earlier in this thread different transfer cases can have any combination of 2wd, part time 4wd or full time 4wd. When in 'low' range most transfer cases will be in 'full time 4wd low'. So the first consideration is how do you want your front locker to act when in full time 4wd? A 'always locked' or 'automatic' will tend to pull the wheel straight and lessen your turning radius. I run an Aussie in my d44 up front and can totally tell when I am in full time 4wd. On the trails it's not too bad but it does take a little getting used to. The NEXT consideration is how do you want the your front locker to act when you are in 'part time 4wd'. The difference between how it acts on the trail between full time and part time won't be noticeable. But 'part time' 4wd can be used on the street since the transfer case will allow the front/rear axles to spin at slightly different speeds which is useful around corners. A 'part time' transfer case in 'part time' operation will have some very unusual driving characteristics when turning with an 'always locked' front axle. This will also be true with a 'automatic' locker up front. The 'always locked' is going to try really hard to make the front tires turn at the same speed. There are some folks who say this isn't that bad. An 'automatic' locker will also try to make the front tires turn at the same while turning and may tend to act weird as it tries to allow some slippage. It's basically a fight between the traction your tires have, the difference in speed, the kind of automatic locker and if you are accelerating, coasting or slowing down as you turn. In low traction street situations this can get really tricky (rain, ice, snow). The axle is trying to spin the tires at the same speed and it can overcome the traction the tires have. results will be unpredictable. It is generally not recommended to have a 'always locked' or 'automatic ' locker on the front axle if you plan on being in 4wd on the street. There are some folks who will say it is okay. I have never tried it so I don't speak from personal experience.

My jeep had a np208. My options were 2wd, full time 4wd high, full time 4wd low. There was no option to drive in 4wd on the pavement. I live in AZ so trail driving on ice/snow was very limited. I put the aussie up front and it was fine. In 2wd, even with the hubs locked, you did not know it was up there.

If I was you I would get the aussie and put it in the rear axle. You have an np229 case right? (2wd, 4pt, 4 full time). You will get the added benefits of a locker and your drivability will not be compromised.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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NoLaFSJ
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by NoLaFSJ »

Tod, that's interesting. I was going to pull the springs from the parts jeep axle this weekend and swap them into my axle. Now I'm curious to see whether or not the parts jeep even has the springs since it's an 88'. By your theory, it may not.

Will E, thanks for all the good info!! You confirmed my thoughts of just getting an auto locker for the rear. I think for what I'm going to be doing (and NOT doing), that seems to be the best compromise. And yes, I do have the np229 transfer case.
Brian

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Mdcptman
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by Mdcptman »

Im real curious to see also. Please let me know. Ive seen a few w the sleeve/spacer, but they were all 88 and later, so maybe its a later year thing. I think 84 was the last year for the vacuum disconnect front hub, so maybe its all 85 and up? Ok, so a question for the group...... Has anyone else seen this?
88 Grand Wagoneer
360/727/208
Edelbrock 2131, non-EGR
Holley 600
Hydroboost
Hedman headers
Dual exhaust
MSD 6A
TFI conversion
Rusty's 2" Add-a-Leaf kit
31 x 10.5 LT15 Goodyear Wrangler Authority Tires
S-10 Steering Box Mod


Quote From Friend's Mom:
"You don't rely on that vehicle do you?"
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by carnuck »

will e wrote:Ah, the old locker question and which axle to put it in.

There is an ongoing debate on which axle is 'better' to have a locker.
There is also an agreement that if you can have a locker on both axles that is better than just one locker on either axle.

In the rear axle you can put any kind of locker you want. An 'always' locked rear axle will cause some weirdness around corners and snow but many people have done it and say it is very manageable. I have not. An automatic locker (aussie, detriot, etc) will also work well in a rear axle. They will try to let the rear tires turn corners at different speeds. Some people like the 'always' locked over the 'automatic' locker because it is more predictable. Others like the 'automatic' locker because if the ability to differentiate the rear wheel speeds. There are several types of automatic lockers to choose from, especially for a d44. There is also a 'limited slip' which is almost a locker. They typically use clutch plates to try to keep the rear wheels at the same speed but allow the differentiation around corners. But unlike the other types of lockers they can also let the wheel with the most traction slip. Also, the clutches wear out. And finally the selectable locker allows you to select if it is open and operating like a normal rear axle or 'locked' where the two axles will spin at the same speed. In my opinion the selectable lockers are the best choice but they come at a premium price. They require some kind of operation (cable, electric, air) and these systems add to the complexity and can break. (When they do break it is almost always in the 'open' position). You also have to remember to turn them on/off.

The front axle can also be fitted with any of the types mentioned above. The complicating factor is what kind of transfer case you have and how you use it. As mentioned earlier in this thread different transfer cases can have any combination of 2wd, part time 4wd or full time 4wd. When in 'low' range most transfer cases will be in 'full time 4wd low'. So the first consideration is how do you want your front locker to act when in full time 4wd? A 'always locked' or 'automatic' will tend to pull the wheel straight and lessen your turning radius. I run an Aussie in my d44 up front and can totally tell when I am in full time 4wd. On the trails it's not too bad but it does take a little getting used to. The NEXT consideration is how do you want the your front locker to act when you are in 'part time 4wd'. The difference between how it acts on the trail between full time and part time won't be noticeable. But 'part time' 4wd can be used on the street since the transfer case will allow the front/rear axles to spin at slightly different speeds which is useful around corners. A 'part time' transfer case in 'part time' operation will have some very unusual driving characteristics when turning with an 'always locked' front axle. This will also be true with a 'automatic' locker up front. The 'always locked' is going to try really hard to make the front tires turn at the same speed. There are some folks who say this isn't that bad. An 'automatic' locker will also try to make the front tires turn at the same while turning and may tend to act weird as it tries to allow some slippage. It's basically a fight between the traction your tires have, the difference in speed, the kind of automatic locker and if you are accelerating, coasting or slowing down as you turn. In low traction street situations this can get really tricky (rain, ice, snow). The axle is trying to spin the tires at the same speed and it can overcome the traction the tires have. results will be unpredictable. It is generally not recommended to have a 'always locked' or 'automatic ' locker on the front axle if you plan on being in 4wd on the street. There are some folks who will say it is okay. I have never tried it so I don't speak from personal experience.

My jeep had a np208. My options were 2wd, full time 4wd high, full time 4wd low. There was no option to drive in 4wd on the pavement. I live in AZ so trail driving on ice/snow was very limited. I put the aussie up front and it was fine. In 2wd, even with the hubs locked, you did not know it was up there.

If I was you I would get the aussie and put it in the rear axle. You have an np229 case right? (2wd, 4pt, 4 full time). You will get the added benefits of a locker and your drivability will not be compromised.
You have part time 4x4, which means slippery surfaces only. Full time means any surface. (I know. Confusing terms. I prefer locked 4x4 and limited slip myself)
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by will e »

Darn it, I always get those backwards...
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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Mdcptman
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by Mdcptman »

But to clarify.....the NP229 transfer case which the OP is running in his stock 88 GW, has a viscous coupler, and can be driven in 4WD on any surface, including dry non slippery surfaces.
88 Grand Wagoneer
360/727/208
Edelbrock 2131, non-EGR
Holley 600
Hydroboost
Hedman headers
Dual exhaust
MSD 6A
TFI conversion
Rusty's 2" Add-a-Leaf kit
31 x 10.5 LT15 Goodyear Wrangler Authority Tires
S-10 Steering Box Mod


Quote From Friend's Mom:
"You don't rely on that vehicle do you?"
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XJChad
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Re: 4wd ignorance

Post by XJChad »

Mdcptman wrote:Im real curious to see also. Please let me know. Ive seen a few w the sleeve/spacer, but they were all 88 and later, so maybe its a later year thing. I think 84 was the last year for the vacuum disconnect front hub, so maybe its all 85 and up? Ok, so a question for the group...... Has anyone else seen this?
Yes my 89 GW has the sleeves instead of springs.
1989 Grand Wagoneer, 4" Rusty's Lift, LS 5.3L swap (in progress), 4L60e, NP241c.
1991 Grand Wagoneer, all stock, a work in progress, for sale soon.
1982 Cherokee Laredo, 360ci, aluminum intake, Edelbrock carb, HEI, w/32x11.50x15, warn 8000, Dana 44/AMC 20
2001 Cherokee Sport, Old Man Emu lift (worn out), front/rear C4x4 bumpers, Smittybuilt 10,000 winch, 31x10.50x15, Edge Tuner kit w/throttle body & AFE cold air, Gibson exhaust-my daily driver until the '89 is finished.
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