1970 Wagoneer Window Motor Rebuilder?

[spjohnson1031]

Hi all!

I have a 1970 Wagoneer with the dreaded electric tailgate window. Long story short, my original motor was shot. The casing had completely rusted through and wasn't salvageable.

I acquired a cleaner, but non-working tailgate motor after having no luck locating a functional one. It's all there, I assume it just needs a rebuild. Any idea where I might be able to send it to be rebuilt? I saw that Team Grand Wagoneed will rebuild them, but supposedly they only rebuild motors as early as '74.

Any insight would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance!

[runuover86gw]

There is usually not much to rebuilding a tailgate window motor. Usually the only time you run into problems is if the gears are stripped and it can be a pain to find the gears. Typically it is just changing out the carbon brushes, cleaning up the armature, making sure there isn't any damage to the windings or magnets, may need to solder in some new lead wires, inspect everything else for damage and clean it up including the gears and then re-pack the gears with the proper grease and then reassemble. I may be making it sound easier than actually is. Just depends on your skill level. I have never personally rebuilt a 1970, but I have rebuilt many of the 79-91's and and some of the 72-78's. I am pretty sure the 70 is the Kaiser model and I don't have a spreadsheet of parts needed for that one and I have never taken one of that year apart, so I am not sure if it is very different than the other models, but I don't see how it could be.

[tgreese]

I would point out that electric motors can fail and not be repairable. You can fix up normal wear by cleaning, new brushes and sometimes bushing/bearing replacement. However, the windings have a finite life time. Unlike iron/steel, copper accumulates stress over its lifetime. At some point, the windings are going to break, usually where they transition from the iron core to the connection at the commutator or case.

You can take the motor apart and measure continuity of each of the windings, and check for shorts to the armature or case. If it checks ok, and you can freshen the wear parts, then it's probably going to work.

I only mention this because you write "a cleaner but non-working motor." There's no guarantee that it's rebuildable - it may be broken. If the armature were bad in the clean example, you could maybe combine the field from the clean one with the armature from the rusty one. First thing I would do is clean (inside and out) and lube the clean example and see if I could make it run at all.

[spjohnson1031]

There is usually not much to rebuilding a tailgate window motor. Usually the only time you run into problems is if the gears are stripped and it can be a pain to find the gears. Typically it is just changing out the carbon brushes, cleaning up the armature, making sure there isn't any damage to the windings or magnets, may need to solder in some new lead wires, inspect everything else for damage and clean it up including the gears and then re-pack the gears with the proper grease and then reassemble. I may be making it sound easier than actually is. Just depends on your skill level. I have never personally rebuilt a 1970, but I have rebuilt many of the 79-91's and and some of the 72-78's. I am pretty sure the 70 is the Kaiser model and I don't have a spreadsheet of parts needed for that one and I have never taken one of that year apart, so I am not sure if it is very different than the other models, but I don't see how it could be.

Thanks for the information. I have very little electrical experience as it's one of the areas I haven't had to dive too far into as a hobbyist luckily. I am however mechanically inclined and seem to do pretty well when I have something in front of me and I can see it. Maybe I'll give it a shot. Do you actually replace anything internally, or generally just "clean up?"

Thanks!

[runuover86gw]

I would point out that electric motors can fail and not be repairable. You can fix up normal wear by cleaning, new brushes and sometimes bushing/bearing replacement. However, the windings have a finite life time. Unlike iron/steel, copper accumulates stress over its lifetime. At some point, the windings are going to break, usually where they transition from the iron core to the connection at the commutator or case.

You can take the motor apart and measure continuity of each of the windings, and check for shorts to the armature or case. If it checks ok, and you can freshen the wear parts, then it's probably going to work.

I only mention this because you write "a cleaner but non-working motor." There's no guarantee that it's rebuildable - it may be broken. If the armature were bad in the clean example, you could maybe combine the field from the clean one with the armature from the rusty one. First thing I would do is clean (inside and out) and lube the clean example and see if I could make it run at all.

I completely agree. If you know what you are doing, definitely test everything out electrically. I will not put power to a used motor of any sort until I have taken it apart and checked it out. And if everything checks out good, then I will clean it up. That is why I was saying in my comment if the windings are bad or the magnet gets damaged, then it is a much more serious issue and it would probably be cheaper to find a parts one that has a good armature, windings and case that isn't rusted out that has complete magnets still attached to it.

[runuover86gw]

There is usually not much to rebuilding a tailgate window motor. Usually the only time you run into problems is if the gears are stripped and it can be a pain to find the gears. Typically it is just changing out the carbon brushes, cleaning up the armature, making sure there isn't any damage to the windings or magnets, may need to solder in some new lead wires, inspect everything else for damage and clean it up including the gears and then re-pack the gears with the proper grease and then reassemble. I may be making it sound easier than actually is. Just depends on your skill level. I have never personally rebuilt a 1970, but I have rebuilt many of the 79-91's and and some of the 72-78's. I am pretty sure the 70 is the Kaiser model and I don't have a spreadsheet of parts needed for that one and I have never taken one of that year apart, so I am not sure if it is very different than the other models, but I don't see how it could be.

Thanks for the information. I have very little electrical experience as it's one of the areas I haven't had to dive too far into as a hobbyist luckily. I am however mechanically inclined and seem to do pretty well when I have something in front of me and I can see it. Maybe I'll give it a shot. Do you actually replace anything internally, or generally just "clean up?"

Thanks!

Just my personal opinion. If you don't feel comfortable around electronics, I usually tell my customers to not do anything they aren't sure about. Some things I will walk them through, like checking voltages, resistances, doing continuity checks, cleaning out a window or door lock switch or something. But usually when it gets into motors, I usually don't guide them through too much, because it is a lot easier to screw up a motor or not properly clean it than it is a switch.

[tgreese]

There is usually not much to rebuilding a tailgate window motor. Usually the only time you run into problems is if the gears are stripped and it can be a pain to find the gears. Typically it is just changing out the carbon brushes, cleaning up the armature, making sure there isn't any damage to the windings or magnets, may need to solder in some new lead wires, inspect everything else for damage and clean it up including the gears and then re-pack the gears with the proper grease and then reassemble. I may be making it sound easier than actually is. Just depends on your skill level. I have never personally rebuilt a 1970, but I have rebuilt many of the 79-91's and and some of the 72-78's. I am pretty sure the 70 is the Kaiser model and I don't have a spreadsheet of parts needed for that one and I have never taken one of that year apart, so I am not sure if it is very different than the other models, but I don't see how it could be.

Thanks for the information. I have very little electrical experience as it's one of the areas I haven't had to dive too far into as a hobbyist luckily. I am however mechanically inclined and seem to do pretty well when I have something in front of me and I can see it. Maybe I'll give it a shot. Do you actually replace anything internally, or generally just "clean up?"

Thanks!

Exterior cleaning isn't going to do much. Whether you can clean the inside depends on whether you can take the motor apart without ruining it. I have some experience with such things, and I would look the motor over carefully and make sure I understood how it was assembled. Taking it apart reverses putting it together. Some assembled parts are not meant to be dis-assembled... you can run a high risk of ruining something trying to make it come apart.

Inside the motor, usually there's a build-up of dust and grease that you need to clean away. This stuff accumulates, especially in a dirty or oily environment. The bearings have some kind of lubrication, and that needs to be cleaned away and replaced. Brushes wear out, and you may or may not be able to replace them. These are spring-loaded and need to be held back (or absent) during assembly. The commutator needs to be cleaned; I would start with a pencil eraser and see how that goes. This motor has a gear case attached, and that will come apart, be cleaned and re-lubricated.

[tgreese]

Thinking about this a bit, a shop that repairs auto electrics may be able to help you. Starter motors and generators have a lot in common with such things, and the shop may be able fix up what you have. These shops still exist, and sometimes cater to the classic car collectors. Likely would not be cheap.

You could also look for other motor cores with more promise. There are Jeep junkyards - what's your location? If you put your location and year/model/equipment in your signature, it will appear in every post. https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/member ... ile&u=8443

[runuover86gw]

Thinking about this a bit, a shop that repairs auto electrics may be able to help you. Starter motors and generators have a lot in common with such things, and the shop may be able fix up what you have. These shops still exist, and sometimes cater to the classic car collectors. Likely would not be cheap.

You could also look for other motor cores with more promise. There are Jeep junkyards - what's your location? If you put your location and year/model/equipment in your signature, it will appear in every post. https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/member ... ile&u=8443

I would just so happen to be one of those shops. I am a small business owner though and am currently doing this more so to help others keep their vehicles running properly and safely, while charging affordable prices. When I was making my earlier comments, I was just saying I haven't worked with one from a 70 model year, because that was right around the time AMC was acquiring Jeep from Kaiser and I believe it has the Kaiser tailgate motor. I just haven't had a chance to pick up one of the Kaiser models yet. I am slowly acquiring electronics from every make and model FSJ from the 91GW back to as far as I can find. I am slowly building a spreadsheet with trouble areas and replacement parts for different electronic components, because I am purchasing these parts out of pocket to do all of my R&D on them when I have time. If I can find replacement parts, I add that to it. If I can find a way to repair or manufacture that part, I add that to it. Some of the parts that take longer in my mission to do this is to find parts that have identifiable components, so I can reverse engineer a set of schematics with the proper value components in them. At the moment I am mainly focusing on FSJ's. I help some friends locally with other model classic cars. I have been working with electronics for over 30 years when my late Grandpa taught me how to solder when I was around 7 or 8 back home in Minnesota. I would always follow him around and help him with all of his projects. Then when I was about 9 or so, I helped my Dad rebuild his engine in his Mach 1. Ever since then I have had a love for classic cars. I currently have another full time job, which is why I haven't set up a website yet and haven't did a lot of advertising on my business. A lot of it has been from word of mouth from previous customers and I have been staying very busy. If you have Facebook, here is a link to my Facebook Page for my business. I need to update a few things on it this weekend. It has been a crazy busy week with my normal job and finishing up custom projects for some customers. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. That is focused more at the original poster, but can be for anyone. I don't charge anyone for advice on troubleshooting or questions. https://www.facebook.com/JoshsFSJRelayKits

[tgreese]

Just as background information - there is a '62-73 J-series parts book here - https://oljeep.com/edge_parts_man.html (suggest you download the whole thing and look at it on your desktop - paging through online takes forever).

Group 23. There is a picture of the old-style tailgate window motor at G23-L4. The motors are listed at 23.310-1. '72 or earlier could be one of two styles, the angled motor or the upright motor. '73 is all upright style. Things change drastically in 1974, with a completely different group of parts to run the tailgate glass. 1974 was a watershed year for these vehicles (year of the "complete" AMC redesign), and I would expect a lot of differences.

You have one of two types of motor from a large range of years for these Jeeps, more than a decade. I expect TGW does not rebuild them because 1) there are probably not enough good cores to keep them in stock, and 2) there are way fewer of these older vehicles on the road, and I'm sure there's not enough demand to make back the investment in development, stocking, marketing etc. Again, if you can't handle it yourself, you'll likely have to find someone that can rebuild your core, like the poster 86gw above.

Again to the OP - please put your general location in your posts. It will help us help you. There is a place in your profile to list a location. (apologies to 86gw - I meant to link the OP's profile in the above post).

[runuover86gw]

Just as background information - there is a '62-73 J-series parts book here - https://oljeep.com/edge_parts_man.html (suggest you download the whole thing and look at it on your desktop - paging through online takes forever).

Group 23. There is a picture of the old-style tailgate window motor at G23-L4. The motors are listed at 23.310-1. '72 or earlier could be one of two styles, the angled motor or the upright motor. '73 is all upright style. Things change drastically in 1974, with a completely different group of parts to run the tailgate glass. 1974 was a watershed year for these vehicles (year of the "complete" AMC redesign), and I would expect a lot of differences.

You have one of two types of motor from a large range of years for these Jeeps, more than a decade. I expect TGW does not rebuild them because 1) there are probably not enough good cores to keep them in stock, and 2) there are way fewer of these older vehicles on the road, and I'm sure there's not enough demand to make back the investment in development, stocking, marketing etc. Again, if you can't handle it yourself, you'll likely have to find someone that can rebuild your core, like the poster 86gw above.

Again to the OP - please put your general location in your posts. It will help us help you. There is a place in your profile to list a location. (apologies to 86gw - I meant to link the OP's profile in the above post).

Yea, there is a lot of good information on the oljeep site. It's all good about linking to his post. We are all here to help each other. TGW doesn't rebuild them either, not that I would want to send mine there anyways just from previous personal experience, not to say everything is bad quality. I don't know of anyone that rebuilds this style that is one of the big Jeep aftermarket companies. And I am assuming like you said there are just not that many out there and it is not cost effective to develop the casting and machinery needed to make new parts. And you are absolutely correct even about the newer models. A lot of these companies that have a send in and rebuild program are having issues getting cores that have parts that are usable for the newer versions also.

[letank]

I have not looked very closely at the various tailgate motors side by side with the window ones, but I strongly suspect that someone could swap the working innards of a window to a tailgate.

And it is probably a motor made off-site to one of the subs... so anything could be done as long as the gears/gearing of the tailgate motor to the lifting mechanism are still in good shape

No FSJs in our junkyards to be able to scavenge a later tailgate motor...

[runuover86gw]

I have not looked very closely at the various tailgate motors side by side with the window ones, but I strongly suspect that someone could swap the working innards of a window to a tailgate.

And it is probably a motor made off-site to one of the subs... so anything could be done as long as the gears/gearing of the tailgate motor to the lifting mechanism are still in good shape

No FSJs in our junkyards to be able to scavenge a later tailgate motor...

I would seriously doubt you would be able to just swap the insides of a window motor with a tailgate window motor. There is a lot of engineering that goes into designing a window motor. For one, the size of the wire, the number of coils, the number of coil windings are some of the things that go into determining how much torque the motor outputs. You don't need as much torque in a motor for a side window as you would for a tailgate window. There are several other things that go into the design of a window motor that I really don't have the time to go into. But if you are really curious as to the many other reasons it wouldn't work, I am sure I can find you a link describing what goes into the design of a DC motor.

[tgreese]

I thought Michel was suggesting replacing the regulator and motor complete, possibly the lifting channel or tailgate glass too. The shell of the tailgate is the same. The only obstacle to this, AFAIK, is whatever standoffs or brackets are welded to the inside of tailgate to support the regulator. They need to be close enough to support the new regulator. Some snooping at a Jeep junkyard might answer that. May be none of these in local junkyards, but I'm sure Jakes or Montana Overland or such would have some.

Looking at the parts book pictures, the external appearance of the motors is really different. I kinda doubt you could swap over the whole motor.

[runuover86gw]

I thought Michel was suggesting replacing the regulator and motor complete, possibly the lifting channel or tailgate glass too. The shell of the tailgate is the same. The only obstacle to this, AFAIK, is whatever standoffs or brackets are welded to the inside of tailgate to support the regulator. They need to be close enough to support the new regulator. Some snooping at a Jeep junkyard might answer that. May be none of these in local junkyards, but I'm sure Jakes or Montana Overland or such would have some.

Looking at the parts book pictures, the external appearance of the motors is really different. I kinda doubt you could swap over the whole motor.

Ah ok, I see what you are saying. That makes much more sense in my head. Put an updated system in an older tailgate including the regulator. I don't have much experience with the Kaiser year FSJ's yet, but am curious. I am guessing there would be some fabrication involved to get the newer system to fit properly with the mounting brackets. And you would probably have to run some new wires to the dash, which I would probably recommend anyways if it were original wiring. If I had the space in my garage, I would look into attempting something like this. But, I am going to have to wait until I move into my forever house in the next few years or so and have a shop to work in to try stuff like that. And of course, focus only on my business instead of working a full time job and running a business. Lol. Sucks when you have all these ideas in your head, but just don't have the space or time to do them all.