QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

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J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

The bearings that are in my case and the old donar case are Federal I 206fc

Dropped them off hoping for luck out!

In the meantime,
Sealing up reduction unit found more of these Federal bearings,
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J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

Sorry about the multiple posts on the same subject, I did not see (like a dummy) that they had posted to the next page, they were supposedto all go into one post. I don't know how to delete the posts only edit them. So again I apologize to all.

I still really need some help with this one. As couple of you guys have rebuilt these cases before and used the Timken 6206-Z. I just don't get it, they are to small by 50 thou




Ok in the middle of the full rebuild.
Ok so here is one that has me really stumped.
Local bearing supply actually had the books for the QuadraTrac output shaft bearings, they listed them as Timken 6206-Z, could not belive after looking through 4 old books they found it, this is before I pulled the number from my phone!
I had seen in a post that was the part Number fulsizjeep used as well.
Well tried to put them in today and they don't fit!
The outer diameter is to small, they (Timken 6206-Z) are 2.44 od, the original Federals outs are 2.49! What the heck is going on here! Out by 50 thou!

Please any help would be greatly appreciated!

bigun
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by bigun »

J10dan wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:40 pm Sorry about the multiple posts on the same subject, I did not see (like a dummy) that they had posted to the next page, they were supposedto all go into one post. I don't know how to delete the posts only edit them. So again I apologize to all.

I still really need some help with this one. As couple of you guys have rebuilt these cases before and used the Timken 6206-Z. I just don't get it, they are to small by 50 thou




Ok in the middle of the full rebuild.
Ok so here is one that has me really stumped.
Local bearing supply actually had the books for the QuadraTrac output shaft bearings, they listed them as Timken 6206-Z, could not belive after looking through 4 old books they found it, this is before I pulled the number from my phone!
I had seen in a post that was the part Number fulsizjeep used as well.
Well tried to put them in today and they don't fit!
The outer diameter is to small, they (Timken 6206-Z) are 2.44 od, the original Federals outs are 2.49! What the heck is going on here! Out by 50 thou!

Please any help would be greatly appreciated!
Have you tried taking the old ones to a bearing shop and see if they can cross reference to another number? I have done this with wheel bearing in the past

SJTD
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by SJTD »

fulsizjeep wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:11 am
SJTD wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:39 pm Could they be flame-sprayed and reground? Might cost too much.
You speak a language I am not familiar with sir.
I seem to have gotten out of sequence in reading/replying to posts. I was referring to the sprockets. :banghead:

Flame-spraying is a process for building up surfaces where powdered metal is injected into a flame playing against the surface to be built up. The flame heats the base metal and melts the powder. Alloy can be the same as the part being resurfaced or different for more wear resistance. I don't think it's precise enough to use a resurfaced part as is after treatment so it has to be machined.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

bigun wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:26 pm
J10dan wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:40 pm Sorry about the multiple posts on the same subject, I did not see (like a dummy) that they had posted to the next page, they were supposedto all go into one post. I don't know how to delete the posts only edit them. So again I apologize to all.

I still really need some help with this one. As couple of you guys have rebuilt these cases before and used the Timken 6206-Z. I just don't get it, they are to small by 50 thou




Ok in the middle of the full rebuild.
Ok so here is one that has me really stumped.
Local bearing supply actually had the books for the QuadraTrac output shaft bearings, they listed them as Timken 6206-Z, could not belive after looking through 4 old books they found it, this is before I pulled the number from my phone!
I had seen in a post that was the part Number fulsizjeep used as well.
Well tried to put them in today and they don't fit!
The outer diameter is to small, they (Timken 6206-Z) are 2.44 od, the original Federals outs are 2.49! What the heck is going on here! Out by 50 thou!

Please any help would be greatly appreciated!
Have you tried taking the old ones to a bearing shop and see if they can cross reference to another number? I have done this with wheel bearing in the past


Yes did that couple days ago, no luck as of yet.
There is nothing to cross reference against the Original Federal ones, they are trying by size now.
Everything the old book says and what 2 previous guys on here have said the Timken ones should be the ones for the output shaft.
Had the shop Forman at 4wheelParts, who is a buddy have a good look as I figured I was loosing my mind. He is just as surprised as me that they are 50 thou out, in the od.

Pair O J10
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by Pair O J10 »

I also faced this problem the correct bearing has slipped into the unobtainium realm. I purchased shim stock from Mcmaster Carr in .025 I cut the shim stock to about .500 width trimmed it for length rolled it and used it as a spacer in the housing. i epoxied the spacer to the housing the replacement bearing which is under size OD fits snug and is centered in the bore. So far I have had no problems with it, now I dont beat this Jeep or offroad with it at all, under those types of conditions I can not attest to how this work around will hold up.
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fulsizjeep
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by fulsizjeep »

Interesting development for sure on the output bearings. That bearing p/n used to fit just right. I wish I had stocked a few more back in the day. Oye

Now, try and find the bearing that goes in the T400-QT adapter. I did manage to pick up 2 new spares a few years ago.
Image

Here is a NOS adapter bearing I put in my wife's Wag 9 years ago.
Image

Try contacting Cascade 4WD on those output bearings. Might get lucky. :-bd
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J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

fulsizjeep wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:33 pm Interesting development for sure on the output bearings. That bearing p/n used to fit just right. I wish I had stocked a few more back in the day. Oye

Now, try and find the bearing that goes in the T400-QT adapter. I did manage to pick up 2 new spares a few years ago.
Image

Here is a NOS adapter bearing I put in my wife's Wag 9 years ago.
Image

Try contacting Cascade 4WD on those output bearings. Might get lucky. :-bd
Yes both of us cannot belive it either, as I mentioned the supply store here, who has been around forever, had the old books that listed that Timken 6206-Z as the bearing. It's 2.44 od! You can see here the original Federals are 2.49! We measured the donnar case as well, whitch is 5 years older same size!

As far as the T 400 adapter bearing goes Mines in relatively good shape. The donnar case one is shot. Yet I figured finding that one was out. If I could find one, of course I'd put it in. You don't want to part with one of those extras do you lol! 🤣🤣👍

I will try Cascade 4WD and see if by chance they have the output shaft bearings and maybe the adapter bearing as well!

I'll let you know, thanks for the info once again!

Dan
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J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

J10dan wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:55 am
fulsizjeep wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:33 pm Interesting development for sure on the output bearings. That bearing p/n used to fit just right. I wish I had stocked a few more back in the day. Oye

Now, try and find the bearing that goes in the T400-QT adapter. I did manage to pick up 2 new spares a few years ago.
Image

Here is a NOS adapter bearing I put in my wife's Wag 9 years ago.
Image

Try contacting Cascade 4WD on those output bearings. Might get lucky. :-bd
Yes both of us cannot belive it either, as I mentioned the supply store here, who has been around forever, had the old books that listed that Timken 6206-Z as the bearing. It's 2.44 od! You can see here the original Federals are 2.49! We measured the donnar case as well, whitch is 5 years older same size!

As far as the T 400 adapter bearing goes Mines in relatively good shape. The donnar case one is shot. Yet I figured finding that one was out. If I could find one, of course I'd put it in. You don't want to part with one of those extras do you lol! 🤣🤣👍

I will try Cascade 4WD and see if by chance they have the output shaft bearings and maybe the adapter bearing as well!

I'll let you know, thanks for the info once again!

Dan


Called cascade he tried. He is going to call me back about the adapter bearing.

The timkin is a 62mm hence the 6206-Z

So found a 30x63x16mm by NSK

Going to try it, nobody makes a 64mm, just waiting to find out availability.

There is also a Sleeve option, would prefer not to go that route

Daniel

J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018 (better explanation)

Post by J10dan »

Edit! (Sorry for poor explanation 1st time)

Ok been awhile!
Ok found a 30x63x16 by nsk
Will post link later for anyone interested.
Here is the link

https://www.sp-spareparts.com/en/p/b30-148c3-nsk

There are a few vendors for this bearing

Putting case back together with all the new parts, needle bearings, large and small, chain, output shaft bearings, cones ect.
With the new Cones from bjs, wish I could attach the video.
We are working with bjs on this. Yet anyone with experience with the new Cones with the 3 holes, imput is welcome!
The new cones (ours anyway) sit higher in the Drum. We tried this on several Drums. Same result.
With one side assembled, and the play now in the teeth of spider gears that allows the smaller gears to walk away from thrust washers on cross shaft. its the same when i have t shaft slid into the large gear to center in cone.
The old cones have almost zero spider gear tooth lash in the Drum.

The new cones sitting higher, we found that there is excessive lash present now in the spider gears& side
gears. As said the new diff cones do not sit as deep in the drum as the old ones. So now is way too much lash present in all the spider and side gears. I half assembled one side of the drum/ sprocket with the new cone, and slid the shaft in to center side gear. If its assembled like this the teeth will get damaged in the spider gears.


What the heck? We are working with bjs on this.
Anyone else come across this with the new Cones?

Dan
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Triumph215
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by Triumph215 »

Very interesting thread. I just pulled a 'real' QT out of my rig that wasn't assembled properly (homemade TC oil) and the clutches never freed up. I put TC1 in it and it was better but still not good. I rebuilt the original OD TC and reinstalled it because I had no confidence in the one that was in there. Here shortly I'll be taking it apart to see what I have in there and if it can be saved. I'd very much like to have good parts in there but am not feeling great about it after reading through this. I will feel pretty fortunate if I have good parts in there. I also owe Flint a picture of my chain as there was a chain link on my drain plug and he asked to see it once I open it up.
1964 Triumph TR4 with 1964 Olds 215 heart transplant
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Pair O J10
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by Pair O J10 »

I'm not aware of any spec printed for the side gears or pinion gears pertaining to running lash. I do know if the cones wear too much and close up the lash the gears will dig into the brake cones and will destroy the pinion shaft and case. If you assemble the sprocket and get a good torque bias test you should run it. You say your case is good, if there are any high spots the brake cones will rock side to side. You can have the sprocket resurfaced as I have posted before, any good machine shop can dress it up for you should the surface require it you should not clean it up factory fresh, to do so will probably render it useless. Just have them clean up any high spots, You should note there is "point" 5 degree difference between the brake cone and the sprocket. One is 12 degrees the other is 12.5 can't remember which is which, measure the angle on your brake cones and you'll have the answer.

J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

Pair O J10 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:15 pm I'm not aware of any spec printed for the side gears or pinion gears pertaining to running lash. I do know if the cones wear too much and close up the lash the gears will dig into the brake cones and will destroy the pinion shaft and case. If you assemble the sprocket and get a good torque bias test you should run it. You say your case is good, if there are any high spots the brake cones will rock side to side. You can have the sprocket resurfaced as I have posted before, any good machine shop can dress it up for you should the surface require it you should not clean it up factory fresh, to do so will probably render it useless. Just have them clean up any high spots, You should note there is "point" 5 degree difference between the brake cone and the sprocket. One is 12 degrees the other is 12.5 can't remember which is which, measure the angle on your brake cones and you'll have the answer.

I do appreciate your imput. I do. Yet In my case, Torque bias has nothing to do with my problem.
My Sprockets as I said we're in very good condition. To the point that I don't need to worry about the extra shims ect that most need because of wear. I have the reverse problem, where as mine don't have the extra wear, whitch is causing the Cones to sit high in the Drum. Causing the lash problem, to simplify.
This is tested against a donnar case, measuring (the best you can) and other Q Trac builders seeing my "good set of Drums" and the condition of my Orginal Cones vs multiple others.

With that all said.
I am bulding this Case at my local 4wheel parts store, with help from the shop Forman has a good amount of experience with these cases. Also the Manager is a Friend. Along with him is my other friend who I got the donnar case from. He has 4 fsj's and had an extra case.

Bjs has been working with us and forwarded pictures and movies to Novak and they responded:

"When we ground these, we made them to the specs of the previous batches, which had gotten good feedback. We're walking a fine line on them in that:

We had to reverse-engineer the cones based on two of our QuadraTrac's here, and their somewhat worn cones and bores, as no blueprints were available. I think we erred towards making the cones a bit thicker in that we knew they'd be going into slightly worn bores. It may be that we took that too far. Again, I think that calculation has worked out well for most. This customer must have a better-than-usual case sprocket.

We could possibly grind a custom set here to be a great match to your customer's sprocket bores. If they are willing, we can use their unit (the drums) to achieve that and we will push our standard closer in that direction.”

As Novak commented "This customer must have a better-than-usual case sprocket."

This seems to be the case.

The question is pending how much time and cost to have Novak do this. It's seems a little much to send in Drums, yet if it's for R&D and cost is reasonable. Then we will see.
When I know the answers I will update.

Dan

Pair O J10
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by Pair O J10 »

I knew torque bias had nothing to do with your problem. If your sprockets are that 'unworn" may I ask why the need for new cones? I mean you may indeed have a unicorn there, seems the original cones would be as untouched as the sprocket. Interested in reading about the outcome for sure, please do keep us posted.

J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

Pair O J10 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:02 pm I knew torque bias had nothing to do with your problem. If your sprockets are that 'unworn" may I ask why the need for new cones? I mean you may indeed have a unicorn there, seems the original cones would be as untouched as the sprocket. Interested in reading about the outcome for sure, please do keep us posted.

Since we have the Case apart for full rebuild, we had already Ordered the Cones from Bjs.
With that said you asked why would I need new Cones if the Drums are in that good of shape.
The Cones have some wear of course and since it's apart and new Cones are here. The cones could be used again if really necessary, yet why? Right.
Also I was having the "Slip Stick" problem (Just after changing chain and Fluid only) and these new Cones have the extra 3 holes to help, circulation of Fluid.

Dan

J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

It looks like through Bjs, Novak wants to make me some Custom Cones. This obviously is a big development, They have offered, Through R&D or whatever. I give them allot of Credit to strive and keep improving on the design.
We are working out Details now with bjs.

Dan
Last edited by J10dan on Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pair O J10
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by Pair O J10 »

That is big...I'm sure they will end up with a better product in the end themselves. I had always wondered "If" the factory used some kind of "lapping" procedure to seat the cones in the sprocket. I wish Borg Warner had some old prints on the sprockets and in fact they may have, when I was a Quality Insurance Inspector for a major Jet Engine manufacturer they had prints in their library that were very old indeed. I wonder if anyone has ever inquired..

J10dan
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by J10dan »

Pair O J10 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:23 am That is big...I'm sure they will end up with a better product in the end themselves. I had always wondered "If" the factory used some kind of "lapping" procedure to seat the cones in the sprocket. I wish Borg Warner had some old prints on the sprockets and in fact they may have, when I was a Quality Insurance Inspector for a major Jet Engine manufacturer they had prints in their library that were very old indeed. I wonder if anyone has ever inquired..
They(Novak) wrote this:

"When we ground these, we made them to the specs of the previous batches, which had gotten good feedback. We're walking a fine line on them in that:

We had to reverse-engineer the cones based on two of our QuadraTrac's here, and their somewhat worn cones and bores, as no blueprints were available. I think we erred towards making the cones a bit thicker in that we knew they'd be going into slightly worn bores. It may be that we took that too far. Again, I think that calculation has worked out well for most. This customer must have a better-than-usual case sprocket.

We could possibly grind a custom set here to be a great match to your customer's sprocket bores. If they are willing, we can use their unit (the drums) to achieve that and we will push our standard closer in that direction.”

Here is hoping!
Doing the logistics now.

Dan

Maladroit
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by Maladroit »

Now, try and find the bearing that goes in the T400-QT adapter. I did manage to pick up 2 new spares a few years ago.
Hello FSJN, I have been driving a QT CJ7 since 1990 and I mostly post over on the JeepForum and lurk around FSJN. I am rebuilding a QT and decided to make a few very amateur videos with as much detail as I can muster to document the process so I can look back on the next rebuild and remember what I did. Inspired by Jubilee Jeep's excellent QT documentation, which I have used extensively over the years, I decided to start a YouTube channel to share QT information in that format and hopefully help other QT owners. In my deep dive to find replacement parts for the videos(and on-going rebuild), I found what appears to be the correct T400-QT adapter bearing (35mm x 90mm x 20mm with snap ring) at Advance Adapters. So, I ordered a couple and will install soon, but they seem identical to the original bearing.

Anyway, in case this is useful, I'll put the link below. If I am somehow mistaken or if this is common knowledge, please correct me.

https://www.advanceadapters.com/5194
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tgreese
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Re: QuadraTrac PSA for 2018

Post by tgreese »

Maladroit wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:10 am
Now, try and find the bearing that goes in the T400-QT adapter. I did manage to pick up 2 new spares a few years ago.
Hello FSJN, I have been driving a QT CJ7 since 1990 and I mostly post over on the JeepForum and lurk around FSJN. I am rebuilding a QT and decided to make a few very amateur videos with as much detail as I can muster to document the process so I can look back on the next rebuild and remember what I did. Inspired by Jubilee Jeep's excellent QT documentation, which I have used extensively over the years, I decided to start a YouTube channel to share QT information in that format and hopefully help other QT owners. In my deep dive to find replacement parts for the videos(and on-going rebuild), I found what appears to be the correct T400-QT adapter bearing (35mm x 90mm x 20mm with snap ring) at Advance Adapters. So, I ordered a couple and will install soon, but they seem identical to the original bearing.

Anyway, in case this is useful, I'll put the link below. If I am somehow mistaken or if this is common knowledge, please correct me.

https://www.advanceadapters.com/5194
Thanks for posting. Do you have a link to your channel? I would be interested in watching that, even though I have only been around the transfer case, never owned one.
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