Water Water Everywhere!

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coop923
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Water Water Everywhere!

Post by coop923 »

The Wagoneer sat under a pine tree from '77 until about '07 when I pulled the badly mildewed interior out. The floor was rusted through in places and there was evidence of water (rust) in places where it shouldn't have been- like where the floor/inside of the firewall meets the kick panel area below the a-pillar. I know I have multiple places where water can come in. As of now all my door weatherstripping is gone and I'm looking for an affordable source for that.

My biggest concern though is the water that I am assuming is coming in from the cowl area, mostly because I don't understand the internal structure. Is there some sort of a drain that may be clogged or something I should look at that would be causing water to run down and come out here:Image.

It seems that the water is coming out the cut-out from below the hinge.

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bbuenger71
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by bbuenger71 »

I would like to know about this as well! With our heavy rains yesterday I saw water in the same spot. Looked like it was coming from behind the dash.
1976 Wagoneer
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Edelbrock non EGR, Holley 600cfm, 32" BFG Mud Terrain KM2's. Lots of Bondo.
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Nikkormat
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by Nikkormat »

Same here, can get the occasional drip from the lowest drivers side corner of the dashboard while driving.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.
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TUDrewser
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by TUDrewser »

The cowl drains down the sides to some holes in the bottom. These are easily clogged, especially with pine needles. To clean it out, you need to remove the air vents on the side kick panel (inside, has a cable attached), then stuff a shop vac hose down in there to get all the crap. You will be shocked how much is in there! And EVERYONE needs to do this...if you never have, yours has crap in there. It's a very common problem.
1990 GW "saved by Jerry" edition
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carnuck
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by carnuck »

The air vents on the side are "hidden" behind the fender and leaves and junk pile up there (If it's not frozen where you are, you might want to clean it out of leaves and junk) There is a "pocket" right above the vent that fills up with junk and rots out the A pillar. The bottom of the windshield tends to leak too due to the design.
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TUDrewser
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by TUDrewser »

1990 GW "saved by Jerry" edition
will e wrote:I guess life is better if you are not moving too fast.

Topic author
coop923
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by coop923 »

Great information guys -thanks!
TUDrewser wrote:Here's an awesome thread on it:

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=117646

Here's my original thread on it:

http://fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4012
]
Very informative threads! Thanks !

letank
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by letank »

Thanks for the infos, same here another soaked carpet.... so I did the same thing and trully, got a nice few quarts of fine organic compost, I installed a screen over the fresh air intake, but there was still over 20 years of accumulated debris.

passenger side =you can tell there is a pine tree on this side of the street:
Image

and driver's side, harder to do some forensic:
Image

checking for the roof leaks, I guess my previous repair of 3 years ago did not work too well around the screws holding the rails for the roof rack

Image

I could tell when I removed the cargo lamp cover

Image

the headliner is holding fairly well because it is covered with this mylar insulation and aluminum tape

Image
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Oh Maaaaaaaannnnnnnnnn!

I had forgotten my Cherokee leaks like this so when I read this thread tonight I went out to check on the situation.
It's been raining hard for 3 days here and the inside of my poor jeep is so humid the windows are fogged up. The new carpet is soaked from the firewall to well behind the seats. I think there is a leak coming from well up under the dash too.
Even my steering wheel foam is squishy.
I made matters worse because I had both vents open...

I guess I know what I'm doing tomorrow.
Thanks for posting this here and on the Mothership.
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

letank
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by letank »

Those vents are a pain to get at and the sticky compound is really sticky. The padding gets in the way on the passenger's side and on the driver's side you need to remove the parking brake mechanism, the hood release and for the 85, there is a reinforced bar between the parking brake mechanism and the lower dash, disconnect the battery... not difficult just a good twisting work.

At least I know why the parking light is non op, so much rust between the brake lever holder and the firewall.

And replace the "squid release" lever holder that was broken.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by Tatsadasayago »

I've never removed these vents...does it come out of the hole as one piece?
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

69gladiator
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by 69gladiator »

In a 69 there is a sleeve with the door on it and the grill goes over it. Note the position of the door and cable. I caulked the flange on the sleeve before I screwed it back together. The factory seam sealer on the joints above the vent hole had dried out and was leaking. No rust or rot. I caulked all the seams. The debris in the vent box was almost up to the bottom of the vent hole. Heavy water flow could not filter thru and would run out of the vent. The drivers side was a real PITA because of the e-brake.

letank
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by letank »

Tatsadasayago wrote:I've never removed these vents...does it come out of the hole as one piece?
yes it does, but because of the firewall padding you have to torture the mounting flange , so you can extract the duct (or flange as 69gladiator mentionned) that is holding the flapper, let me finish my beer, and I will get pict.

finished cleaning and putting some anti-rust ( I mean rust-retardant )

here we go

Image

the whole assembly

Image

and the drainage at the bottom for the passenger side

Image

and the drainage for the driver's side, take a peek at the hi lo switch, it gets covered with grime as well
Image
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Sorry letank, I had to get to work before you answered.
as I mentioned last night, my poor Blair III Project had turned into the Humid Swamp Thing III.
Image
That fogged up stuff was on the INSIDE! :o
It was so moist inside the jeep even the seats and steering wheel were damp.
So today I bailed out and got busy armed with info I'd gotten from here and the IFSJA site.

Image
The shot above is the passenger side kick panel showing the wet areas. I had sprayed flat black paint all over to make leaks/wetness easier to see and the yellow arrows point to a few. The leak at the middle arrow had me puzzled since it was coming from above. It turned out the the door switch wire and sheath were very loose and the grommet had hardened and cracked. To make matters worse, the antenna coax cable had been cut off and the 1/2" hole left open.

Image

Same thing everyone else found after pulling the vent housing. Not only were there leaves from my crate myrtle tree but another 5-6" of compost with a thick layer of sediment under that.
The gasket had dried out, was brittle and sections at the top and bottom had cracked and fallen out.

Image
This shot is looking up from the passenger side floor toward the firewall. Right away I was concerned by the sealer and paint that had flaked off at the top. It didn't seem to have been wet any time recently but it bothered me.
When I started cleaning the vent opening I noticed there was a vertical bend starting up at the top of the kick panel going right down through the center of the vent hole and stopping where it meets the floorboard.

Then it hit me... :idea:
The previous owner had hit something hard at the right front bumper and it caused the fender to move back and was pushed downward, tilting it toward the ground. I suspect the force of the hit is what caused the cowl and kick panel to buckle.
I straightened the kick panel and moved on.

Image
This is looking down into the passenger side plenum showing the debris packed into the bottom.
I vacuumed everything out then washed the area out and confirmed the drain was clear.

Image
The shot above is from the battery looking into the fan housing.
Air comes in from the cowl and turns left into the fan's squirrel cage then turns left again and goes into a intermediate chamber.
You can see the leaves and weeds caught between the firewall and the fan housing. This area was almost full of soaked sediment mud and decayed leaves...and I wandered why since there is a 1" lip formed by the pinch weld at the opening. You can see the four spotwelds below the 'Cowl area' text.
I vacummed and rinsed this area and moved on to the heater box to the right.

Image

This looking right into the heater box where you can see the heater core, diverter door and the opening into the interior air box.
In the middle of this photo you can see a seam running left to right under the middle arrow. There is a dropoff into a lower area and it collects quite a bit of junk. There were leaves packed up against the heater core and quite a few to the left but not really much durts or rust. I ran the vacuum nozzle in there and sucked everything out...I thought.

Image

I broke out my handy video inspection tool and peeked about inside the air box and found a big wad of those dang crate myrtle blossoms packed into the corner next to the heater core. Some more directed vacuum action cleared that area out.
If you can afford the 99 dollars for one of these, DO IT! The new versions have a much smaller head that you can feed into the spark plug holes to take a look inside your cylinders as well as being very handy for looking into tight places.

Image
After checking the shop vac tub I found this little gem.
This appears to be a factory caulk blob that sealed the cowl/firewall/kickpanel pinch weld that's almost directly under the antenna hole. Apparently it was knocked loose when the PO ditched the jeep.

Image
Image
I dug into the drivers side cowl with the shop vac and sucked this odd looking thing out. It may be factory caulk, but it's hard as plaster. I threw it on the ground and it didn't break. Three big thumb prints in it make me think a PO may have been trying to stop water leaks...dunno and it will probably remain a mystery.

Image

So Dad and I discussed the vents and I decided I would rather close them off since I never use them. He came up with a slick solution for making that happen. He brought a roll of thick vinyl shower pan liner and made a pair of blockoff gaskets.

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Badda Bing!

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While dad was making the blockoff gaskets I slathered roof flashing sealer on the vent flap housings and stuck them back in.

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The vent cover pressed the gasket against the vent housing and I ran an external bead to add a third sealant layer.

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I then laid out a roll of fiberglass door screen and laid it over the cowl.
After making a pair of + shaped cuts for the wiper towers I laid the cowl panel over it then put the screws in all the holes except the 3 ends ones on each side. Once the screws were tight I took my razor knife and trimmed along the gap between the panel and the body for a very clean edge.
I lifted the rubber seal the cowl panel rests on and trimmed the firewall side.
120PSI from an air hose showed the screen wouldn't move around in the wind.
New wipers and an hour and a half sucking water out of the carpet and backing and it was Beer-Thirty.

I'll do an extended water hose test tomorrow after the sealant cures and report back with a :) or an :x

Jim
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

Topic author
coop923
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by coop923 »

Great pics letank and Tatsadasayago! I've got a "Jeep Stuff" list building for tomorrow if it's dry enough. I plan in going cleaning out the fresh air crud and hopefully getting into the interior air box this weekend too.
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Hey letank:
Is it your camera exhibiting some fisheye or do your vent housing tubes (The oval part) slope downward from the mounting flange into the plenum?

I ask because mine (1977) are level.

Nice deep photos! I couldn't get mine in that far so you get +5 and a :-bd
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

letank
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by letank »

Tatsadasayago wrote:Hey letank:
Is it your camera exhibiting some fisheye or do your vent housing tubes (The oval part) slope downward from the mounting flange into the plenum?

I ask because mine (1977) are level.

Nice deep photos! I couldn't get mine in that far so you get +5 and a :-bd
No fish eye, the top part 4" is longer than the bottom by about 1". The camera is a S3 phone, beats the Iphone.

Just took a peek, it seems to be coming from the A pillar, there is a definite wet pathway, that hits the antenna wire and dribble onto the vent and inside. On the driver's side it is not as obvious but I suspect the same path, puddle on the driver's side but no trail. Indeed the bottom of the windshield was patch with body sealer, but it is not enough.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by Tatsadasayago »

After poking around yesterday during the leak repair I sat down this morning and made a weld map in Photoshop.

I believe this is fairly accurate based upon what I saw.

Image

The red lines indicate where the firewall is welded to the lower cowl and kick panel.

The magenta line shows where the firewall is welded to the upper cowl.

The green line shows where the firewall, lower cowl and kick panel come together.

When I cut up my wagoneer I took the time to get into the pillars to understand how they attach to the body.
The A-Pillar passes into an open-bottomed pocket formed where all four of these panels meet as shown by the black Leak Point arrow.
It is in that area that even a pin hole can fill the pillar pocket with water which then trickles down the seam where the kick and lower cowl meet. I believe that the factory caulking did a good job of sealing that area, but once it cracks out water can get past the pinch weld and into the interior.

I think pulling the trim off the pillar and cleaning up not only the exposed metal, but as much as can be gotten to by lifting the windshield gasket up--then applying sealant will probably stop the leaks.
Of course the best thing to do would be to pull the glass and gasket then cleaning, converting and welding the leak areas.

Having said all this, I'm heading outside to do a hose test and check for leaks!
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

letank
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by letank »

Tatsadasayago wrote:
When I cut up my wagoneer
Oh, noh..... another abused wagoneer.

Jim you are correct, I cut one too some time ago and salvaged that section because it is an intricated piece of welding stashed somewhere.

The big piece of caulk that you found is exactly as drawn on your schematic, mine is still holding, need to put the pict up, where you can see the end piece.

Passenger side, the left side of pict is outside

Image

Dry day today so the wetness is gone, the dark tint is some rust retardant that I smeared.
Image

on the driver's side, you can see some wetness, poor rotation the Left side is the front with the hood bolts for the hinge bracket

Image

you can see the blob of caulk on the driver's side as well
Image

My 74 has the same issues, so a tarp or a cover seems the more appropriate at this point.... As Jim said, removing the windshield and removing the rust with a wheel and a few layers of silicone for windshield could, yes could help.... but the layers of sheet metal that are used on this section, is not good ....
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Water Water Everywhere!

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Superb photos letank! Probably very few of us have or ever will see inside those areas and definitely not as clearly! :-bd

So I went out today and checked all the sealant had cured on mine and started a 45 minute water test.

After flooding the cowl, windshield doors, roof and myself I found two leaks--one minor and one not-so-minor.

The small leak I get to blame on my Dad :P Someone previously had drilled two small holes just below the passenger side air vent to mount something. When I asked Dad to plug them with sealant he missed the upper hole which was dribbling water. I gooped it shut and laid some metal tape over to keep the plug in place.

The other leak was coming out from under the dash and tracking down the inside of the kick panel.
I looked up toward the A-Pillar and saw a triangle shaped opening where the dash, cowl and A-Pillar come together--with water dripping from it. The red arrow in the shot below shows the triangle area.

Image

I went outside and started to remove the pillar chrome only to learn the screw (red arrow) had been broken off, the caulking at the joint (blue arrow) was gone and there were several rust holes on the pillar part. I also learned the windshield gasket is definitely leaking and causing the glass to de-laminate.(green arrow)
Image

In the picture below the red arrow points to the triangle shaped opening. The blue arrow shows the dirrection water comes down the inside of the A-pillar and drops onto the kick panel. The windshield gasket leak rolls off the lower cowl panel and drops through the same triangle shaped opening.
Image
Looks like I'm going to do some metal work and windshield removal soon.
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation
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