R&P pattern... opinions?

Area for General FSJ related chat.
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

I feel content with this but just want some second opinions. Think this contact pattern is acceptable? I am having a tough time with the marking compound. Its so cold in my garage this stuff is like glue. By feel (which I know isn't "proper") it actually feels good. Very minimal pinion play when i hold the ring gear from spinning, no side to side with the carrier, no in and out with the pinion. Going off of the original carrier and pinion shim thickness I only changed it very minimal. This isn't the best pic either.
Image
Last edited by Phils67 on Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

The more I look at it, I feel like I should try getting the ring gear closer to the pinion head
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

Stuka
Site Admin
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:53 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Stuka »

Is this the front or rear? As you are showing the coast side of the teeth.
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

Front 44HD out of a '78 J20
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

dodgerammit
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:20 pm
Location: Middle TN

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by dodgerammit »

The marking compound is always like glue. I'm having a hard time reading the coast side from this angle.

Ideally, you want to totally coat 3-4 teeth of ring gear on both sides. You also want to do this in 3 spots around the gear to check for run out variances.

I would also recommend a good dial indicator if you haven't done this much. If you have, and you are confident with the by-feel method, disregard me.

One more question. This is a low pinion front, correct?
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

92 Wrangler Islander 4.0/32RH/231 D30/D35 RHD
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

Yes it is low pinion. While looking at the front of the diff, spinning the yoke clockwise drives it forward. I have a dial indicator and all the stuff to do this. I have done quite a few but its been years since I've had to setup with all new internals. I feel really rusty doing this. And that marking compound is way thicker feeling than what I recall using in the past but it may be the temp in the garage (it was 18° in there tonight)
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

Ok now I am feeling confusion. The steeper taper is drive side, correct? So in that image, rotation of the pinion clockwise should spin the ring forward. Please tell me this isn't reverse rotation or something.

*update*
I got dressed and went back outside to double check the cut of the new gears vs the original set. They are the same. If I didn't go back out I would have been up all night stressed about it.
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

Stuka
Site Admin
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:53 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Stuka »

The drive side is the side of the tooth with the steeper angle. In this case, the "bottom" side of the teeth in this photo.

Patterns: http://www.alloyusa.com/gear-patterns
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

So if my gear set is correct, then both the factory installed set from 1978 AND the set I just purchased that is cut exactly the same as the previous set, drive from the coast side. This is when looking at the opening of the housing as if looking at it installed under the front of the truck, which is passenger side drop, low pinion, with a pinion gear located on the lower side towards the center of the truck, when spun clockwise, drives the truck forward using the coast side. My brain hurts.
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

./_______\.
[OoIIIIIIoO]
[]---O--------[]

Looking at it from this view
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

Stuka
Site Admin
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:53 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Stuka »

Yes, the front axle, when its a pow pinion, drives the coast side of the teeth. This is the primary advantage of a high pinion, the secondary being drive shaft angles and clearance.
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

This whole post has done nothing but stress me out and make me second guess my judgement, ability, and parts purchases. All I really wanted was a second opinion on a compound pattern that I was having difficulty reading due to how it was not marking in the ways it normally would yet it felt smooth when operated by hand. I think I will lay off posting in the forum about it until I am done. Less internet and more intergarage.
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

Stuka
Site Admin
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:53 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Stuka »

Sorry, R&P's are tricky to setup your first time. Its why most people have it done. The patterns "look" mostly ok from the photo.
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

This isn't my first time. Just my first one in a loooong time. I'm sinking a good amount of dough into this pair of diffs and that has my anxiety up. I don't have room for error. But I slept on it and I am not satisfied so its coming back apart after work until its perfect. There are alot of parts I still have to get for both diffs and the suspension so this is going to be a long process. Hopefully these are the last ones I have to build for this truck. The lift kit, closed knuckle 44 and welded 53 have to go. It will be worth it in the end
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

And while I am at it, does anyone have measurements for a passenger drop J20 front axle shafts? I want to order new shafts from Dutchman and this housing came bare so I do not have shafts to go by
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

dodgerammit
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:20 pm
Location: Middle TN

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by dodgerammit »

Both times I have set up axles, I simply reused the original pinion shims. Both times, the pinion set up fine. The only adjustments I made were to the ring gear shims. Having a press and bearing puller for the press made my life easy. Both times I only moved the thinnest shim from one side to the other. I got my backlash within spec, then checked the pattern. But I painted like I stated and looked for the rubbed off spots on the ring gear. I'd definitely see if I could warm the marking compound above 18*.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

92 Wrangler Islander 4.0/32RH/231 D30/D35 RHD
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

dodgerammit wrote:Both times I have set up axles, I simply reused the original pinion shims. Both times, the pinion set up fine. The only adjustments I made were to the ring gear shims. Having a press and bearing puller for the press made my life easy. Both times I only moved the thinnest shim from one side to the other. I got my backlash within spec, then checked the pattern. But I painted like I stated and looked for the rubbed off spots on the ring gear. I'd definitely see if I could warm the marking compound above 18*.
I was going off of the original shims but I am not only regearing, I'm installing a Detroit locker as well so that changes the whole carrier assembly. I removed .010 from my pinion depth due to it binding a bit and it rotates smoothly since doing so. Tonight I need to get the heater fixed in the garage before I do anything else. I feel like the ring gear can go towards the pinion more but I am not changing anything until I can warm the marking compound. It is so thick from the cold it wouldn't make accurate markings last night and my OCD won't take "good enough" for an answer. As soon as I am done at my stupid job today I am going out there and getting back on it. I have a shop press so final assembly should go smooth once I am happy with it. Right now its just in there using machined setup bearings
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
User avatar

babywag
Posts: 1217
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Land of Fruit Loops & Coconuts

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by babywag »

go grab a little ceramic element space heater.
they work very well, working in cold sucks.
be sure to mix marking paint w/ gear lube to thin it out.

maybe just me but hard to read your pattern from that pic.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
User avatar

Cecil14
Posts: 727
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:40 am

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Cecil14 »

You got this. Just step back, take a breath, center your charkas and all that, and take another stab at it. Like you said, you've got time. Nothing to be gained here by rushing, these things get done when they're finished, not when you're ready for them to be done. :)


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank
User avatar

Topic author
Phils67
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: R&P pattern... opinions?

Post by Phils67 »

Well the project has to sit tonight. Got c*ckblocked by my Comanche giving me grief again. Gotta deal with that now. This is the last non-4.0 Jeep I will ever buy. This 2.5 is a pita
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
Post Reply