collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

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candymancan
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby candymancan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:17 am

How do you tell if your lifters are collapsed just curious ?
2013 SS camaro, cammed, and modded too much to say 500 RWHP/650 crank 30k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 191k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 256k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 126k

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tgreese
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby tgreese » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:00 am

Clatter, I'd presume.
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fulsizjeep
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby fulsizjeep » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:04 am

The most obvious symptom of a faulty hydraulic lifter is the clatter in the engine. A faulty lifter will usually result in the rocker arm, rocker arm bridge, valve tip and push rod also going bad if left unattended.
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88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s, a few Evil Twin mods, http://eviltwinfab.com and a few TT's Fabworks mods, http://www.ttsfabworks.com
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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby letank » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:29 pm

candymancan wrote:How do you tell if your lifters are collapsed just curious ?


as said above... but for my specific case, no noises, only an engine vibration at off idle with shaking that has disappeared after the ATF treatment... but now, I have a low tap consistant w collapsed lifter(s)

the manifold vacuum is 20", w a slight flutter of 0.5"... timing is off, too much caked oil, finally spotted around 10... Need to reroute vacuum for manifold vacuum... the list is long...
cleaning vents before first rains...
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (226 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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candymancan
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby candymancan » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:24 pm

Reason i ask is my 360 makes horrible clatter or clanking when cold started but only if i drive it.. If it starts and idles its not there.. If i drive it it chatters badly for the first 100 feet then quiets up.

Thr knocking is still there very very slightly in idle when i drive wherever but yea.

Oil pressure is 40 cold idle. 20 hot idle.. and 60 driving hot... I took the crsbk bearing off at least 3 of em and they were all fine.. But ive put over 20k on it like this and it hasnt gotten worse or better.

I just csnt figure out why it does this... Everyone who hears the engine in oerson think it sounds great.. but they dont hear the cold start drive imediately noise.. If i cold start it and let it idle of maybe 5 min then drive off the noise isnt there..

So i dunno wtf it is.. sorry to ask this in your thread but ige been trying to figure this out for 2 years since i bought it
2013 SS camaro, cammed, and modded too much to say 500 RWHP/650 crank 30k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 191k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 256k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 126k

letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby letank » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:12 pm

candymancan wrote:Reason i ask is my 360 makes horrible clatter or clanking when cold started but only if i drive it.. If it starts and idles its not there.. If i drive it it chatters badly for the first 100 feet then quiets up


not too sure, as it is a tricky diagnostic, but from my experience, the collapsed lifter will rattle cold or hot, and more noticeable at idle.

may be a weak oil pump that takes time to built oil pressure, so you have a top end clatter... thinner oil such as 5w30... or add another quart of oil in the crankcase... our oil pan can take 6 quarts, somebody had a pict of our oil pan w 5 vs. 6 qt... also some of those dipstick are a bit off...
Michel
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letank
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Update -finally- cupped lifter on #2

Postby letank » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:09 pm

Made the second leg of the trip last saturday, only 40 miles, the engine pulled quite well on various climbs, up to 70mph without a glitch, or high 20s of some our steep streets... I went intake manifold vacuum for the advance as on the previous leg there was some pinging.

Cracked the intake off, what a beast, I had forgotten about the weight, I could barely yank it off, even with the 2 eye bolts... so it is not collapsed lifter, but severly cupped on both Intake and exhaust of #2... Time to use the spare edelbrock and spare 4 barrel that have been collecting dust in the crawl space...

the passenger bank was almost done... did not have time to start the passenger bank.... yes ALMOST, because I need a new prescription glasses, read the torque wrong and at 43lbs (19ft/lbs is the correct #), I was thinking, this is too much while pulling on the torque wrench... the bolt stretched... but did not break.... pffffft...
Now, try to find 5/16 18 flange bolt... even the speed shop did not have any, said, it was a weird size... found some grade 8 at the local ACE and will put washers that may need a little trimming.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (226 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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babywag
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby babywag » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:15 pm

I'm sure I can find a few bolts if you need/want?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.
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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby letank » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:27 pm

babywag wrote:I'm sure I can find a few bolts if you need/want?


Thank you for the offer, I managed to file the grade 8 washer to fit, about 1/16 to clean up on 2 sides.... of a round washer.... but if you can spare 2, lets pm for details. No rush, I need to check the offending cam lobe to make sure that it is up to specs
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
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babywag
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby babywag » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:59 pm

I likely have many rocket bolts. You can email me or I believe still have yours.

If lifters are toasted then unlikely cam lobes are still ok.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.
email me I never receive PM notifications and frequently do NOT see them.

letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, New cam on the shopping list

Postby letank » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:29 pm

babywag wrote:
If lifters are toasted then unlikely cam lobes are still ok.


Image


100% on the diagnostic... Need a new cam, lobe lift for #2Ex =.1xx, Int =.13x (did not bother to note extra decimals) , #1Ex is .238 and Int .250
for giggles I did #4 that had a healthy lifter #4 Int =.256 and Ex = .250
Specs are .266 (EDIT: .260 to .270 for the 360)

All spark plugs look nice except #2

So which cam to pick?
Looks like I will be getting new skills...
Last edited by letank on Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michel
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85 Gwag (226 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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babywag
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby babywag » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:21 pm

I've got a stock cam(used) w/ lifters I just pulled from an engine lifters looked good too but I'd do new lifters and re-break in.
Engine by all appearances was rebuilt and extremely clean w/ good bearings.
They let it get water in cylinders though.
I can check all lobes if you're interested?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.
email me I never receive PM notifications and frequently do NOT see them.

letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby letank » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:35 am

babywag wrote:I've got a stock cam(used) w/ lifters I just pulled from an engine lifters looked good too but I'd do new lifters and re-break in.
Engine by all appearances was rebuilt and extremely clean w/ good bearings.
They let it get water in cylinders though.
I can check all lobes if you're interested?


Thank you, ordered the edelbrock performer. Will check for reason of failure, probably dirt...
Michel
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babywag
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby babywag » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:40 am

letank wrote:
babywag wrote:I've got a stock cam(used) w/ lifters I just pulled from an engine lifters looked good too but I'd do new lifters and re-break in.
Engine by all appearances was rebuilt and extremely clean w/ good bearings.
They let it get water in cylinders though.
I can check all lobes if you're interested?


Thank you, ordered the edelbrock performer. Will check for reason of failure, probably dirt...


There are much cheaper than Edelbrock, same cam different box...
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.
email me I never receive PM notifications and frequently do NOT see them.

letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby letank » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:59 am

babywag wrote:There are much cheaper than Edelbrock, same cam different box...


Yes, but there has been some quality issues with the other brands, which one do you have in mind? It can always be returned...
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (226 Kmiles... the running test lab)
See Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work

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babywag
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby babywag » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:11 am

letank wrote:
babywag wrote:There are much cheaper than Edelbrock, same cam different box...


Yes, but there has been some quality issues with the other brands, which one do you have in mind? It can always be returned...


Edelbrock doesn't do their own cams...there are only a few companies left(if that) that do them.
Elgin or Melling RV cam is same cam, just not paying the premium for Edelbrock name.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.
email me I never receive PM notifications and frequently do NOT see them.

letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query

Postby letank » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:50 pm

babywag wrote:
Yes, but there has been some quality issues with the other brands, which one do you have in mind? It can always be returned...


Edelbrock doesn't do their own cams...there are only a few companies left(if that) that do them.
Elgin or Melling RV cam is same cam, just not paying the premium for Edelbrock name.[/quote]

I looked at the specs for the Edelbrock performer, and the web listing does not match the enclosed spec sheet, the performer plus is a higher rpm than the comp cam which even claim a smooth idle, comp cam claim less Total duration for intake and exhaust duration at 260/260 vs. the performer at 278/288 , albeit the duration at .050 is less for the performer.

The comp cam is CARB approved, has an EO # ?

I might be interested in your second hand cam -email sent-

Still need to find out why #2 cam lobes for Int and Ex were totally chewed up, #1 has some marks but nothing as dramatic as #2


Image
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (226 Kmiles... the running test lab)
See Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work

letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Postby letank » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:03 pm

So waiting for a few more parts, I was trying to figure out the proper way to pull the camshaft and found this querry from getlost4x4:

http://theamcforum.com/forum/360-cam-be ... page1.html

"i would have just used the stock bearings, but they are all broken. they literally split apart when i removed the cam."

so it seems that there is a proper way to pull the cam... by twisting...

purple72gremin said
"Did you force the cam out?????? if you did, then that is why your cam bearings are broken.......I would not put the new cam in the same way--you will break the new bearings the same way.......You are supposed to turn the cam as you take it out...."

getlost4x4 the OP replied
"i'm not sure why the bearings broke to tell you the truth. i pulled and twisted the cam just like you are supposed to. all the bearings were cracked when i removed the cam."

So.... seems like I may need a different plan

I dismantled some of the offending lifters, there was a lot of small debris inside one of them, the #1 Intake. I was making a solid lifter to ensure ease of measurement to prevent the damping of the spring inside the hydraulic lifter
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (226 Kmiles... the running test lab)
See Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work

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babywag
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Postby babywag » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:58 am

You lost me...nothing special about removing or installing a cam??
Also far as the cam...Edelbrock performer cam is what others refer to as RV cam. Comp cams doesn't offer it.
Like I mentioned Elgin or Melling
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272737708630
https://www.ebay.com/itm/132358983836
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.
email me I never receive PM notifications and frequently do NOT see them.

letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Postby letank » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:01 pm

babywag wrote:You lost me...nothing special about removing or installing a cam??
Also far as the cam...Edelbrock performer cam is what others refer to as RV cam. Comp cams doesn't offer it.
Like I mentioned Elgin or Melling
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272737708630
https://www.ebay.com/itm/132358983836


Thank you, I guess I am getting OCD... hoping not to mess up the cam bearings upon removal.

May be I am getting too old for that stuff, time to get a toyota... just kidding, friend got a toyota, bumped something on a dirt road, $1600 repair fee.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (226 Kmiles... the running test lab)
See Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work


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