collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Post by letank »

babywag wrote:You lost me...nothing special about removing or installing a cam??
Also far as the cam...Edelbrock performer cam is what others refer to as RV cam. Comp cams doesn't offer it.
Like I mentioned Elgin or Melling
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272737708630
https://www.ebay.com/itm/132358983836
Thank you, got the Melling, great price, perfectly packed, yes, the removal is easy - my first time- as long as you have an extension to wrestle the long weight.
No cam card, but I suspect , it is the standard cut. Will degree later...

the old cam

Image

and yes the oil hole ligned up... the new gear on the old cam

Image

the old gear on the new cam

Image

of course the other issue is what cause the damage ? I suspect dirt -aka over siliconed installed part... the fuel pump was slattered with silicone, I may have to pull the oil pan to check for debris... or use the scope...

cheers
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Post by letank »

Cam installed and degreed, what a pita, almost felt like blisters cooking under the gloves. Forgot to check the CL, but all the other numbers are withing 1 to 3 degrees.
Timing cover needed an helicoil for the water pump, I missed the gone bolt under the caked grease, ... I had to get some gasket remover to peel the lower timing cover gasket, the razor blade could not cut it. The CRC gasket remover did the trick, but you have to let it sit for a few hours not minutes as indicated in the instructions.
Last edited by letank on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

twisted frame
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Post by twisted frame »

Have you run it with the new cam yet? If so, did it turn out to be basically a stock replacement?
73 J4000. 360, MC 2100, T18A, D20, stock closed knuckle Dana 44 front, 60-2 rear. Warn Lock-O-Matics, Warn/Belleview electric winch, true duals with glasspacks, old-school front diff skid plate, used 265 Toyos on 16" AR wheels.

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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Post by letank »

twisted frame wrote:Have you run it with the new cam yet? If so, did it turn out to be basically a stock replacement?
YES, finished the break in at 19:00 today Monday January 14th... I used the melling MTA-1 which is sligthly better than the stock... Intake 204- Exhaust 214 at .050 cam lift.

I did not expect it to be an easy job, but it was really challenging. Degreeing the cam took me a whole day. When I begin the tear down, I put #1 at TDC on compression stroke to keep the installation without too many surprises... but upon degreeing I was off by 18 degrees of cam lift on both intake and exhaust for opening and closing or about.... after 4 hours I finally obtained 4, 28 and 39, 7 vs the cam card of 3, 27 and 42, 8 -As a note moving the cam a notch or about was all that was needed-

Upon reinstallation I ran into mutiple brain teasers... The oil pan had been dismantled before, but there was no cork gasket, only RTV, so to align the dowels was a real headache... I removed both dowels and wedged the lower rubber gasket of the timing cover against the oil pan but could not slide any of the dowels ... so forget it.... of course being more than 6 weeks since the initial tear down, parts were scattered all over the garage... at least I used a punch cardboard to stack the bolt in the right order.... the water pump revealed that one bolt was broken in the timing cover.... I guess I miss it upon dismantling, I used a metric helicoil which is what I had... unfortunately the hole does not match the water pump bolt hole... no leaks in that area after the break in.

The most agravating challenge was the harmonic balancer installer which failed miserably... at 23:00 last nite I could not tighten it at the last 1/2", I called it a day and popped some adult beverage....

Repeat the harmonic balancer install in the morning after removal and light sanding with 400 grit... it was not better, but I use a bigger breaker bar... until it started to turn better... I stopped thinking that the thread of the crankshaft had decided to give up... but no, it was the thread of the installer... I used the crankshaft bolt for the last 1/4", at least the belts are lined up. -Note I had to put a sleeve on the harmonic balancer, which I had in the parts bin-

Time to install the belts, and I discovered that the PS pump adjuster bolts.... well I only have one... no way to loosen that one, so I wrestled with the fan pulley to install the PS and Alternator belt.... another 40 min of exercise....

The rest of the afternoon went OK.... trying to remember where everything is.... dang where is my carburetor insulator.... did I mention that I ditched the edelbrock performer because the install plates do not match the 2150, I was not ready to debug that old 1406 that had been sitting in the garage for the last 9 years... so the 85lbs intake was coming back.... I removed the hood which is a real easy job, scribbe the bolts for alignement on the hinges, a real must, it makes any engine work a breeze... especially at nite with the overhead lite and the led headlamp... I used the RTV silicone technique for the front and rear gaskets and coolant ports... Hylomar for the intake ports.

16:00 o'clock was lunch break... and at 16:30 I started to prime the oil pump after I filled up the oil filter with the break in comp cam oil... I could feel the increase pressure after 20 sec of priming and tried to boost it with the electric drill, but I have an old priming tool that is a bit too simplistic.... The install of the distributor takes so long that I was wondering of the usefulness of the priming... at least I know that the pump is able to prime.

I primed the carb with the electric fuel pump and the engine started after the third try, so it was all good... kept the rpm at 2000 to 2500 with a few bursts to 3000...

All was good until the coolant started to burp, I used distilled water, in case of a leak it is less messy and because the system is so rusty, I wanted to be able to do a 3rd or 4th rinse, the burping was non-stop, so I put the radiator cap on, and surveyed the coolant temp that stayed on the first mark , 200F I believe for the 86 vintage....

After 20 min it was done, engine oil was still at max, not too sure about coolant.... then I spotted a large oily puddle under the drivetrain... F...k, did the rear seal of the intake manifold gave up.... no... it is ATF.... to be checked in the morning... I dumped some kitty litter to sponge the mess.

Edited for clarity and update below:

The ATF leak is from one of the trans cooling hose, albeit new, I believe that there is a hole in the rubber hose of some sealant residue on the metal line, a bit of cleaning did not help, so I slid the hose a little more and move the hose clamp, but I had to put a second clamp
Last edited by letank on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Stuka
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Post by Stuka »

Glad you got it together, its quite the job.
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Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

twisted frame
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Post by twisted frame »

I appreciate the details - thank you. Hope the trans leak repair goes easier than the rest.
73 J4000. 360, MC 2100, T18A, D20, stock closed knuckle Dana 44 front, 60-2 rear. Warn Lock-O-Matics, Warn/Belleview electric winch, true duals with glasspacks, old-school front diff skid plate, used 265 Toyos on 16" AR wheels.

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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, NOW: need Cam

Post by letank »

twisted frame wrote:I appreciate the details - thank you. Hope the trans leak repair goes easier than the rest.
trans leak was the wrong size hose at the trans cooler on the radiator, the feed is 5/16 not 3/8... the return is 3/8
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

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letank
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first long drive some flats and some hills: 18.5mpg

Post by letank »

you have to be kidding, I was scratching my head.... the usual 190* mile trip took 226 miles, the odometer is off by 20%, so at 15.4mpg, it is not bad, keeping up with traffic, well not really as everyone is zooming at 80mph, sticking to 65mph because there is some driveline vibration above.
Nice pick up power, could keep up a more than decent speed in the sierras foothills. Best of all the temp barely moves to under 220 on the long steep hillclimbs
190*, could be less, some unusual traffic jam required some city detours
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

weeegoneeer
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

Post by weeegoneeer »

Hi! A few questions:
- Did you replace the cam with the engine still in the truck?
- If so, what was required to do that as far as dismantling the front of the truck?
- Did you do anything to clean out the old debris?

Thanks!
1984 GW

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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

Post by letank »

weeegoneeer wrote: - Did you replace the cam with the engine still in the truck?
- If so, what was required to do that as far as dismantling the front of the truck?
- Did you do anything to clean out the old debris?
Yes, engine still in the engine bay

remove everything up front:
grille, radiator, AC compressor, PS pump with its bracket -no need to remove hoses, fuel pump, distributor -make sure that you have your timing at TDC on #1, fan, water pump, harmonic balancer, timing cover, carb linkage, trans linkage, carb.

there was some dirt in the lifter valley, so I wiped it as best as possible, and then the usual pieces of carbon that are loose from the exhaust cross over, so you have to control as best as possible, I used aluminum foil to cover the lifter valley while cleaning

more pict in the engine bits link in my sig

Image
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

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letank
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New Cam running, but there is always something else

Post by letank »

so after a few hundred miles (well over 400miles) something new happened, could not hold idle in any gear... on the last trip it was getting so bad that I resorted to put in neutral before any stop signs or stop light and keep the idle up...

I found the issue with stalling when putting in Drive or Reverse... the PO leaned the idle screws so much that the idle could now fight the transmission load, it was good enough with the wiped out cam for some reason, but after the cam break in, it was not that good, I managed to clock the first 400 miles that were mostly highway and not too many stop signs or stop lights without noticing the annoying stalling. But on the last trip (another 400 miles) it was getting really bad, that I had to do some diagnostics.

By sheer luck I found out when I flipped the choke flap closed, that the idle in park could keep up at less than 800 rpm, so I increased the mixture first by 1/4 turn, then another 1/8th and it is almost perfect. Also the main jets were #50, on the 2150 for sea level 55 to 56 are considered a good baseline, running with 56 and did a bunch of other contact cleaning such as the dreadful 3 prong duraspark coated with the green grease... of course upon removal the distributor side of the plug broke into pieces, time for weatherpack connectors
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

So for those who suggest running some ATF in the crank case, how long do you leave it in to do it’s thing? I’m tempted to try it as it’s about time for an oil change anyway and it could only help....
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

Post by fulsizjeep »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 pm So for those who suggest running some ATF in the crank case, how long do you leave it in to do it’s thing? I’m tempted to try it as it’s about time for an oil change anyway and it could only help....
No more than a couple hundred miles here. ATF tends to make old engine gaskets leak, so there is that.
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88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

fulsizjeep wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 pm So for those who suggest running some ATF in the crank case, how long do you leave it in to do it’s thing? I’m tempted to try it as it’s about time for an oil change anyway and it could only help....
No more than a couple hundred miles here. ATF tends to make old engine gaskets leak, so there is that.
Thank you. I need to head to town this morning and figured it would be a good time to add it. I already have leaks I need to address again so that isn’t a concern. Just hoping it helps clear up some of the popping and coughing. It won’t surprise me if it is a worn cam in all honesty. At 165k (give or take) it doesn’t seem like there is a lot of longevity to AMC stuff.

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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

Post by letank »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 pm So for those who suggest running some ATF in the crank case, how long do you leave it in to do it’s thing? I’m tempted to try it as it’s about time for an oil change anyway and it could only help....
yes, I used it before finding out that 2 cam lobes were severely flatten, as mentioned it boosted the compression from 40 to 90psi on the bad cylinder.... but after further checks I discovered the 2 flatten lobes... due to dirt that had entered the lifters valley, this is my best explanation. I drove about 50 miles.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

letank wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 pm So for those who suggest running some ATF in the crank case, how long do you leave it in to do it’s thing? I’m tempted to try it as it’s about time for an oil change anyway and it could only help....
yes, I used it before finding out that 2 cam lobes were severely flatten, as mentioned it boosted the compression from 40 to 90psi on the bad cylinder.... but after further checks I discovered the 2 flatten lobes... due to dirt that had entered the lifters valley, this is my best explanation. I drove about 50 miles.
Thanks. I added about 2qts of atf and made a round trip run to town (about 100miles round trip). No miraculous improvement. Wasn’t really expecting it but it would have been nice.

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letank
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Re: collapsed lifters, temp solution query, was: need Cam. Now new Cam running

Post by letank »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:48 pm
letank wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 pm So for those who suggest running some ATF in the crank case, how long do you leave it in to do it’s thing? I’m tempted to try it as it’s about time for an oil change anyway and it could only help....
yes, I used it before finding out that 2 cam lobes were severely flatten, as mentioned it boosted the compression from 40 to 90psi on the bad cylinder.... but after further checks I discovered the 2 flatten lobes... due to dirt that had entered the lifters valley, this is my best explanation. I drove about 50 miles.
Thanks. I added about 2qts of atf and made a round trip run to town (about 100miles round trip). No miraculous improvement. Wasn’t really expecting it but it would have been nice.
De nada, what are you trying to fix? my 85 went from fine to aaaaack, the duraspark went south after 227Kmiles, the back up duraspark went south at the smog station, it was time to clean the contacts... barely holding idle and doing efficient combustion
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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