Soon to be Retired Man Seeks Out Proper Rig

[tedlovesjeeps71]

You mentioned you've never owned/been in a waggy before, right? I'd suggest before you get too far down the path (and the sickness), take a ride in one. Drive it if possible. See if you fit and like it.


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[tgreese]

I would point out, the ZJ was the previous generation of the Grand Cherokee, and came with the venerable very reliable 5.2L (318) V8. Not as good on gas as the 4.0 or 4.7, but a popular choice nonetheless. There were some ZJs built with the Chryco 360, but not many. Both are coil-sprung monocoque designs, but word is that Jeep's proficiency with design improved significantly between the ZJ and WJ, so the WJ is more rigid. There is no factory combination that combines the best aspects of all these offerings - look at the facts, place your bets and take your chances.

I bought a Trailhawk Cherokee KL rather than build a WJ or ZJ (thought about it, a WJ particularly). Not retired, so I don't have the time to bring a vintage vehicle up to my standards. I like my Cherokee.

[will e]

Also, if not rock crawling, why lockers? True tracs are awesome for most anything other than lifting a wheel off of the ground. Even in stock form, these things aren't bad.

And also armor is generally installed for rock crawling. Confused why you need more than some decent bumpers?

Lockers are amazing and I am sold on them. In AZ and in the west in general we have rocks everywhere. I'd want a tank skid, and rocker panel skid, maybe even the rear lower corner panel area.

Those of us in AZ know what you are saying. My practical experience with a 81 Wagoneer and 4" spring lift was it would tackle many of the trails here in AZ. We are not talking about the true rock crawling stuff but Crown King, Martinez cabin (when it was open) and other similar trails are doable. You will want sliders for the rocker panels. I never needed a tank skid but I had the 'coffin' tank. And the rear lower panel area's do take a beating. There is much more overhang than any of the wranglers.

My setup was sliders, lockers on both axles, 4" spring lift and 31" tires. Very capable.

[letank]

welcome, adding my .02, you have an excellent idea to plan ahead, so you can practive with the friendly AZ group, join them even with your daily driver to Ouray this July, I cant make it, I broke my ankle last week while off-roading on 2 wheels.

It is not if you are going to breakdown, but when, so knowing your vehicle is the first step, How to fix it and be able to move forward.

Having spare parts is good, but even the spares are sometimes failing upon installation or shortly thereafter, starter, alternator, master cylinder, ignition module and some have mentioned water pumps. But here you will find the parts place to avoid.

Rust is our first battle, even if most are fighting poor running engine, oil leaks, and electrical systems hacked by the previous owners.

There have been changes along the years, it is the V8 same engine , but 74-79 have the 4x4 transfer case called Quadra trac and most of them have been modifed due to a lack of parts until last year when Novak reproduced the parts, I am skipping 80-81 for ease of contents, by 81-82 you have a few variations of transfer case np208 with manual hub which is a prefered choice to the NP229 with a viscous coupler in the transfer case that can fail when the silicone leak out and leave you stranded, IIRC 86 or 87 had NP228.

Axles are another story, the biggest drawback being that emission control had pushed the manufacturers by early 80's to install high or tall gearing of 2.72, the tow package has 3.31, some of the late 70's had 3.54 , tall gears are terrible when using larger tires

yes the grand cherokee is good, but they are priced low because of annoying problems, if your heater core leaks, you need to pull the dashboard, on our rigs, disconnect the hoses connect them together -unfortunatley they are not the same diameter for in and out. Other issues are with the alarm system, and the 99 to 2002 model being plagued with engine issues.

As for the toy, it seems that most of them need a headgasket of new heads around 170Kmiles.

As some point most of us are trying to find a more reliable rig that can go anywhere, so we surf the other forums, or talk to friends who have bought new vehicles such as toyotas, or jeeps.

I like my old wagoneers, because I know what can break down and how to fix it... spare distributor and electronic modules are always inside and a big hammer if the starter is not happy and a spare electric fuel pump.

[twisty]

Also, if not rock crawling, why lockers? True tracs are awesome for most anything other than lifting a wheel off of the ground. Even in stock form, these things aren't bad.

And also armor is generally installed for rock crawling. Confused why you need more than some decent bumpers?

Lockers are amazing and I am sold on them. In AZ and in the west in general we have rocks everywhere. I'd want a tank skid, and rocker panel skid, maybe even the rear lower corner panel area.

Those of us in AZ know what you are saying. My practical experience with a 81 Wagoneer and 4" spring lift was it would tackle many of the trails here in AZ. We are not talking about the true rock crawling stuff but Crown King, Martinez cabin (when it was open) and other similar trails are doable. You will want sliders for the rocker panels. I never needed a tank skid but I had the 'coffin' tank. And the rear lower panel area's do take a beating. There is much more overhang than any of the wranglers.

My setup was sliders, lockers on both axles, 4" spring lift and 31" tires. Very capable.

Excellent INFO!

[tgreese]

Michel mentioned the Toyotas ... it seems like all that are for sale have a gazillion miles and the owners are asking ridiculous prices - the "Toyota premium." There are also Lexus LX series which are basically equivalent to the contemporary Toyota Land Cruiser.

I mentioned the Nissan XTerra above - these seem to be widely available and not subject to the "Toyota premium." Pretty similar to the '98-up Land Cruisers, and they have the advantage of being imported through 2015, so they can be found fairly new. IFS front, live axle rear, and can be lifted without a lot of difficulty. Surprising to me, the WJs get better mileage. (My KL gets 26 on the highway and 19 around town, BTW). Most XTerras are automatic with a V6, but they were offered with a manual transmission. In a Jeep, an unarguable advantage of a manual IMO is you can bump start if needed.

[twisty]

welcome, adding my .02, you have an excellent idea to plan ahead, so you can practive with the friendly AZ group, join them even with your daily driver to Ouray this July, I cant make it, I broke my ankle last week while off-roading on 2 wheels.

It is not if you are going to breakdown, but when, so knowing your vehicle is the first step, How to fix it and be able to move forward.

Having spare parts is good, but even the spares are sometimes failing upon installation or shortly thereafter, starter, alternator, master cylinder, ignition module and some have mentioned water pumps. But here you will find the parts place to avoid.

Rust is our first battle, even if most are fighting poor running engine, oil leaks, and electrical systems hacked by the previous owners.

There have been changes along the years, it is the V8 same engine , but 74-79 have the 4x4 transfer case called Quadra trac and most of them have been modifed due to a lack of parts until last year when Novak reproduced the parts, I am skipping 80-81 for ease of contents, by 81-82 you have a few variations of transfer case np208 with manual hub which is a prefered choice to the NP229 with a viscous coupler in the transfer case that can fail when the silicone leak out and leave you stranded, IIRC 86 or 87 had NP228.

Axles are another story, the biggest drawback being that emission control had pushed the manufacturers by early 80's to install high or tall gearing of 2.72, the tow package has 3.31, some of the late 70's had 3.54 , tall gears are terrible when using larger tires

yes the grand cherokee is good, but they are priced low because of annoying problems, if your heater core leaks, you need to pull the dashboard, on our rigs, disconnect the hoses connect them together -unfortunatley they are not the same diameter for in and out. Other issues are with the alarm system, and the 99 to 2002 model being plagued with engine issues.

As for the toy, it seems that most of them need a headgasket of new heads around 170Kmiles.

As some point most of us are trying to find a more reliable rig that can go anywhere, so we surf the other forums, or talk to friends who have bought new vehicles such as toyotas, or jeeps.

I like my old wagoneers, because I know what can break down and how to fix it... spare distributor and electronic modules are always inside and a big hammer if the starter is not happy and a spare electric fuel pump.

More great stuff.

I am headed to Ouray the last week in June with my TJ and trailer in tow so likely cant make the july trip. It would have been perfect. Sorry to hear about the ankle!

I like waggy for a couple of reasons I already mentioned plus kinda what you said. Yeah they are old and that has it's problems but they seem like they are simple or less complicated. If I decide wagoneer I may spend the extra dollars on a clean one then go over it and clean up the problem areas left over.

I really looked hard at the toyota land cruisers/lx450's and if it werent for that head gasket I'd likely go that route despite the low power of the 6. Odd toyota isnt known for misses like that. Goes to show you every rig has its Achilles heal.

The wife is pushing for a new 4d jeep rubicon, so that is in the mix too. The price tag is holding me back but my retirement timeline meets with the 3 year lease coming up. So lots of cream puffs at a tad lower price point. They hold their value pretty well so probably not much savings to be had. dunno.

The beauty of the new JLUR is they are likely way more off road capable but I'm not so sure they will be as comfortable on a long trip or have the room a wagoneer has?? I need to test drive one. A tent on the roof may be an issue too.

[SJTD]

While the Wag is beeg it seems to me a lot of that bigness is in front of the windshield. The cargo area doesn't seem that great.

[fulsizjeep]

While the Wag is beeg it seems to me a lot of that bigness is in front of the windshield. The cargo area doesn't seem that great.

Yeah, there is that. My back seat spends about half the year in the basement so I can load it all up on top the spare tire. LOL

[will e]

While the Wag is beeg it seems to me a lot of that bigness is in front of the windshield. The cargo area doesn't seem that great.

Yeah, there is that. My back seat spends about half the year in the basement so I can load it all up on top the spare tire. LOL

I took mine for good!

[tgreese]

A GW is almost exactly the same size as the current 4-door Wrangler. Longer wheelbase for the Wrangler (the GW has more overhang), but the same within an inch or two in height width and OAL. The GW has more cargo space on paper, 95.1 ft^3 vs. 70.6 for the Wrangler.

[rapom]

Dogrammit, I did almost everything you did (except the tbi) and then some to my 79 chief. I even have an engine preluber. A/C blows cold with new sandan compresser, new headliner , serehill harnesses with wireless rear window fob. And a lot of drive time with the family. Although not as much as you. I have multiple classics to pick from.
I would say that I have a very reliable Chief. Super reliable is what I was trying to define and would require more than what you and me did.

[candymancan]

Im in northern va.. I bought 90 Gw with 116k miles for 4500$ minus it leaking when it rained.. needing a new suspension and having rust on the floors and frame that needed fixing and well leaking oil everywhere lol its been very reliable... Ive put slightly over 10k on it. and it hasnt broken down once.. Not even a hiccup. I wouldnt hessitate to drive it accross country a.c blows cold too with 2 cans of r12 in it

But then ive also put about 3-4k $ into in and 2 years fixing it. I had to fix electrical issues for the lighting and other things. I replaced the sagging leaf springs and old shocks. I fixed all the oil leaks. Had the window tinted to keep it more private and cooler from the sun. interior was a gem and mint just needed a new headliner and i replaced the center arm rest with one for storage and cup holders. Had to cut out rust and weld.

Its deff been a project.. But mechanically and exterior and interior its been 100% solid and never gave me problems. Remember though its 4 leaf springs.. they arent known to be the softest ride specially compared to 4 coil spring suspension.

If you want comfort.. Power.. and space i would honestly look for a 1998 5.9 Grand Cherokee ZJ.. Or a 4.0 Limited 98 grand cherokee.. 98 is the best year. Zj look small but they have 90 cubic feet of cargo space.. Thats the most of any grand cherokee wj wk and wk2. Also 4 coil spring suspension eith good shocks the ZJ is way more comfortable with alot of sedans ive been in.. The engines 4.0 5.2 and 5.9 are all reliable

I dont like WJs... If you do get a WJ do not get a limited.. The duel limate control blend doors are always broken and youll hate yourself when you want the a.c or heat on and it doesnt blow it out of the vents in front.


Id rather cut holes in the floorboard and weld a patch then tear an entire dash out and fix a blend door.


Fyi 95 cubic feet of cargo space vs 70 on the 4 door wrangler.. thats a big difference.
. The WK2 grand cherokee has 63 i believe and when you look at my zj and a wk2 side by side with the tailgates open... Its a laugh how tiny that wk2 is..

I fit a 135 gallon 6 foot long 18 inch front to back and 24 inch tall aquarium with its stand in my wagoneer.. with the tailgate closed. Lol



https://imgur.com/JbDyaQX

[dodgerammit]

Dogrammit, I did almost everything you did (except the tbi) and then some to my 79 chief. I even have an engine preluber. A/C blows cold with new sandan compresser, new headliner , serehill harnesses with wireless rear window fob. And a lot of drive time with the family. Although not as much as you. I have multiple classics to pick from.
I would say that I have a very reliable Chief. Super reliable is what I was trying to define and would require more than what you and me did.

I'm not tbi (yet).

I also have my choice of sweet rides to drive. 64 Belair sedan, 2000 WS6 T/A, and the Waggy. A/C system is out atm, but will go back in in the future after the other stuff on the to-do list is finished.

[rapom]

Not to brag. But I have my first Car I ever bought (1986). 79 Camaro 509ci. 400 turbo with gear vendors, Vintage air system made for 2nd gen Camaros etc...
68 Dodge Charger 408 stroked small block with A/C from Classic Air.
67 Dodge Coronet 496 fuel injected (Msd Atomic) stroker, 727 with gear vendors overdrive, Classic air A/C system, mini tubbed etc...
64 Buick Riviera Stock 425 nailhead with 400 turbo and GV overdrive and Vintage air (This is my go to work car on nice days so it gets the most miles)

All cars run on pump gas and are reliable. The dodges have all new electrical systems with multiple relay systems. Camaro has a secondary system for the high load stuff.

All have high amp alternators that have high output at idle. The Coronet has a mercedes softstart electric fan that runs only as fast as it needs to to keep the temps down. (You set the window between low rpm 180 degrees and full speed at 185 degrees.)

Would like to (ls turbo) the riviera if the nailhead ever gives up the ghost.

Have to put them it rotation to drive them since I have only one 16' garage door so one of them sits for a month then I swap them around so another will sit for a month. The Chief,Charger, and Riviera are always available. Camaro and Coronet take turns each month.

Next big job might be fuel injection on the Chief but it is running so good I don't know when I will do it.

My Riviera has x frame like your Belair but it is narrower. You would not believe how hard it was to install an overdrive unit with that x-frame.

[tgreese]

... I dont like WJs... If you do get a WJ do not get a limited.. The duel limate control blend doors are always broken and youll hate yourself when you want the a.c or heat on and it doesnt blow it out of the vents in front.

Id rather cut holes in the floorboard and weld a patch then tear an entire dash out and fix a blend door. ...

Yes, it's a problem with these Jeeps. I kinda think any newish car will require a lot of time and effort to fix issues if it's something buried deep in the dash. You might be able to use it as a bargaining chip when buying. Dunno, taking apart the dash does not seem like such a frightening prospect to me. Supposedly there is a kit that fixes the blend doors without taking the dash apart, but you have to cut a hole in the glove box to reach the blend door. Then you'll have to patch the hole... but you'll only see the patch when the glove box is open.

Regarding ZJs, they are a fine option if you can find a decent one. Around here it seems like there are ten WJs for sale for every ZJ. Funny, the production numbers according to AllPar are similar https://www.allpar.com/cars/production/jeep.html Not sure why they seem so much more common on the used car market. They seem to have been popular as all-weather commuter cars, and their age is right for turnover. You sure used to see a lot of them on the highway.

[dodgerammit]

Not to brag. But I have my first Car I ever bought (1986). 79 Camaro 509ci. 400 turbo with gear vendors, Vintage air system made for 2nd gen Camaros etc...
68 Dodge Charger 408 stroked small block with A/C from Classic Air.
67 Dodge Coronet 496 fuel injected (Msd Atomic) stroker, 727 with gear vendors overdrive, Classic air A/C system, mini tubbed etc...
64 Buick Riviera Stock 425 nailhead with 400 turbo and GV overdrive and Vintage air (This is my go to work car on nice days so it gets the most miles)

All cars run on pump gas and are reliable. The dodges have all new electrical systems with multiple relay systems. Camaro has a secondary system for the high load stuff.

All have high amp alternators that have high output at idle. The Coronet has a mercedes softstart electric fan that runs only as fast as it needs to to keep the temps down. (You set the window between low rpm 180 degrees and full speed at 185 degrees.)

Would like to (ls turbo) the riviera if the nailhead ever gives up the ghost.

Have to put them it rotation to drive them since I have only one 16' garage door so one of them sits for a month then I swap them around so another will sit for a month. The Chief,Charger, and Riviera are always available. Camaro and Coronet take turns each month.

Next big job might be fuel injection on the Chief but it is running so good I don't know when I will do it.

My Riviera has x frame like your Belair but it is narrower. You would not believe how hard it was to install an overdrive unit with that x-frame.

Brag away.

My first car is the 64 Belair. Dad gave it to me when I was 14. I'm 37 now. Not for sale. I replaced the u joints and carrier bearing a couple years ago. Took me a few minutes to slip the yoke back into the transmission tail through that x frame. I can't imagine installing an OD. My powerglide does just fine.

Aside from the Waggy, probably the smoothest riding car by a small margin. Not fast, but fun to just cruise.

[will e]

I can't brag about having my first car, it got totaled by a drunk driver. But I do have my second car. A 73 mustang convertible. 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors.

Baby blue makes it a bit of a sleeper.

Don't you just love the Gear vendors!

My Jeep and my Mustang are my only two hobbies. I think they get jealous when I spend time and money with the other..

[rapom]

I know what your talking about. I pull my driveshaft out every year to give it a good lube job. The only difference between ours is that Buick put two cv joints on the rear part of the shaft behind the carrier bearing. Supposed to lessen the chance of driveline vibration at different angles which happens with a full carload.

In 63, Riveria’s had dynoflow transmissions that looked kind of like a power glide but were very inefficient. They were like a big torque converter. You really only had one speed. You just put it in to gear and drove with no perceivable shift. In 64, Buick and Cadillac were the first to use the turbo 400 trans. which was a big step up.

Boy, we really got off the subject!

[twisty]

I took a ride over to a local joint in Scottsdale that sells cream puff Grand Wagoneers and there was one lifted Wagoneer with a 401 in it. These things were gorgeous,, and ought to be at the price tag. My favorite was the lifted Wagoneer with the 401 but he said it had a horrible ride vs the stock ones.

I wasnt there to buy, certainly not at that price and then drive to alaska. I just wanted to see one and there were many there. The cargo area wasnt as big as I hoped but bigger then a JK/JL .

In talking with the guy about my intentions he didnt seem to think driving his cream puffs up to alaska was a good idea since they are old and more apt to take a poo on such a journey vs a modern rig. My thought was the same as others on this board and feel they could make it easily but personally I would feel bad doing it. These things were works of art and the value of them is going up it.

If I could find a non-cream puff that wasnt too far gone i would still consider such a vehicle. But some on here have opened up my eyes to other possibilities.