Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

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candymancan
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Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by candymancan »

You know ive come to realize.. That a carburted engine in the long run seems to be a lot more reliable then a computerized vehicle. My observations on having this wagoneer have only been in the 2 year time span ive had it. Our 4.0 Zj weve had since i was a kid when my mom bought it brand new and my 5.9 ZJ ive had for 8 years now.


The ZJs compared to more modern cars clearly have less sensors and less computerized components but they still have a lot being OB2 especially the limited models.

They have coolant bottle sensors, washer fluid sensors. oil sensors, four electric fan sensors and many relays for it. Brake light sensors. door ajar sensors.. transmission sensors for overheating.. the typical neutral safety switchs, MAP sensor, IAC sensor, TPS sensor and CPS or crank shaft sensors. Most ZJ have two O2S california have 3.. BCM PCMs,

I mean the list goes on.. In my expeterience its just way way more to go wrong.. Had to replace most of these sensors in both Jeeps already.. Causing stalling. not starting. or other electrical issues.. Some include old solder joints going bad on the circuit boards.. The headlight switchs. rear wipers onboard computer display and the main computer are known for this after 10-25 years it varies.

The only thing i can honestly think go wrong with a carburetor is it needing rebuilt at one point and maybe the egr going bad and replacing vacuum lines. And the ignition box

I can only imagine what it will be like when more modern Jeeps or any vehicle get to be 20+ years old.. It just seems insaine to me.

I dunno just wanted to post my thoughts
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HowardT64
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by HowardT64 »

Ill stick with my 90, no computer stuff :)
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letank
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by letank »

candymancan wrote:--snip-- TPS sensor and CPS or crank shaft sensors. Most ZJ have two O2S california have 3.. --snip---
In the most modern fleet 1991 YJ, I had to replace the CPS at 200kmiles. The TPS was acting up, but it still was within limits.

Loose narburetor inlet needle valve because the mechanic -me- has forgotten to tighten it, or plugged idle jet when the charcoal canister let go.

in the end it all depends on the tech who does the diagnostics
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Stuka
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by Stuka »

I have to disagree. Solid state parts should never fail provided they are manufactured to withstand their environment. Which isn't always the case.

I have seen carbs completely wear out at less than 100k miles. And they pretty much always need a rebuild WAY before 100k. Back in the 60-70's 100k miles was considered a LOT of miles. So having to rebuild a carb at 50k, or spark plugs every 25k wasn't a big deal.

These days, most newer vehicles will easily go 200k if maintained properly with no issues. All they will need is a tune up at 100k for spark plugs, and sometimes an accessory (alternator or the like). They also don't have the mass of vacuum lines that need changing.

Sure carbs can be easier to work on if somebody has zero knowledge of ODB2 systems, but I personally rather have a $10 scanner and know exactly what is wrong then troubleshoot a carb or vacuum line mess.
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by AwesomeJ10 »

I feel my AMC 360 with junkyard GM TBI has been extremely reliable. It starts and runs the same everytime.

The TPS did go out once but it was a gradual failure and I had a spare. TBI parts are really cheap from the yard and I keep spare TBI parts the same as I keep other spare parts.

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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by FSJ Guy »

Here we go again....

Give a carb to someone who's never seen one before and see how well they can tune it!

Before I learned how to tune a TBI system, I was clueless, too.

But my 4.2L VW computer controlled engine runs better than a carb'd AMC 360 and has more power and torque. And is TONS more reliable!!!!

I'll take OBDII and a dedicated VW scanner any day.
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ghcoe
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by ghcoe »

Well electronics are a double edged sword. Great when they work and right, and a pain when they don't. Sure solid state sensors should work right for years, it's the wiring that will get you.

What I don't like about modern cars the most is the terrible interiors. They just look and feel cheap .
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by Shagoneer »

It can be a pain learning to work on modern computerized cars, but it’s so nice not having to keep track of when I changed my oil, not having to pump the gas over and over to start on a cold day, not having to rebuild an engine early from said cold starts, being able to instantly know what’s wrong, having the car compensate for my mistakes, and a million other things.


Computers are a pain but the benefits outweigh the cons
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by Tatsadasayago »

I like both. I'll take a carb'd non-OBDII rig any day if the SHTF and we're living in a Mad Max world. Otherwise, I'll keep driving my over-computerized and hyper complicated car and let the Jeep sit until the zombie apocalypse...

One thing I will say in support of the older junk; they cost much less to repair after your aunt drives into a sign bullard and the SRS (Air Bags) system activates. Did you know there is an explosive charge in the seat belt reels? 250.00 each to replace used for an 02 Altima.
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candymancan
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by candymancan »

FSJ Guy wrote:Here we go again....

Give a carb to someone who's never seen one before and see how well they can tune it!

Before I learned how to tune a TBI system, I was clueless, too.

But my 4.2L VW computer controlled engine runs better than a carb'd AMC 360 and has more power and torque. And is TONS more reliable!!!!

I'll take OBDII and a dedicated VW scanner any day.

Im not talking about power and torque.. My other Jeeps engine has more power as well.. a lot more.. And my camaro has more then yours and mine combined.. Im also not just talking about engines either man.. Im talking about cars as a whole did you not read what i wrote, i mean your VW is in the category of Mercedes, and other european brands that are nortorious for having so many sensors for so many useless things and other electronics on them, that mechanics hate working on them because of how much can go wrong and does go wrong.. Not to mention expensive

Also OB2 computers dont always throw codes.. Do you know how many times on the ZJ's there were 0 codes thrown i had CPS or MAP sensors failing ? Go to any Jeep forum and there are big threads dedicated the infamous stalling issues on these Jeeps, and you have people throwing parts on them because no one can figure out the problem, there PCM's are notorious for going bad after 10 years as well. My 5.9 ZJ would die if i let off the gas, drive around one day and its fine, the next day let off the gas on a turn and boom dies in the middle of the road.. No codes thrown.. Did this for a year and i couldnt figure it out. I had to start swapping sensors and even the PCM until i finally found out the issue.

Same with my moms Jeep, her CPS has gone bad twice, the first time it would stall right on the freeway going 65mph. it would shut off and on and off and on, and then cut off and crank and crank and nothing.. No codes or anything.. If i didnt know how to work on cars id be clueless, but i had a feeling it was the CPS, and sure enough it was.. The new part only lasted 2 years, and i had to just replace it again 2 days ago in 5f weather.. so cold just touching my tools felt like i was touching lava it burned so bad.. This time it was having starting issues.. no code again.

Im not sure if this is just ZJ issues, or if other cars can have failing electronics but not throw codes all the time.. But a stalling engine can be caused by 50 different things. Were you reffering to me when it came to your carb comment ?. I've already learned how to tune it, I also have a spare 2150 i rebuilt from a JY 360 just recently that im selling on ebay right now although im debating on just keeping it . It isnt hard to do, not that many parts in a carb.
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by Tatsadasayago »

FSJ Guy wrote:But my 4.2L VW computer controlled engine runs better than a carb'd AMC 360 and has more power and torque. And is TONS more reliable!!!!
I think you stretched reality a bit there with this comment...
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by fulsizjeep »

I had a really reliable carburetor on my last 360. I still miss it. It would easily win an arm wrestling contest against the Z80 chip set.
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by will e »

I think a lot of the reliabilty when it comes to computer controlled comes down to the quality of the sensors, the quality of the connectors and the quality of the installation.
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by letank »

ghcoe wrote: What I don't like about modern cars the most is the terrible interiors. They just look and feel cheap .
x2 took a test drive in a Tesla S, no storage in the doors, no grab handles and for the rear passengers no place to put your feet because the seat is flush mounted (or the fabric) to the floor. You cannot turn off the sound system, only mute... and the AC for the rear passenger is a miser flow... at least 4 cup holders...

of course we are diverting from the carb and ECU (engine management reliability), indeed a real carb can be fixed 20miles from the nearest highway.

Remember it is not if it will break but when. So fuel pump, dizy and duraspark module are not a bad package to carry along.

Nowadays with cheap parts, a starter is something to keep in mind when the starter begins to act up. Mine seem to last 2 to 3 years lately!
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by rocklaurence »

I agree, I have driven years and thousands of miles without having to adjust or tune anything on a new EFI vehicle. If maintained, they normally run 100K before needing anything. After that they will start needing alternators, AC compressors, water pumps etc and will easily make 200K-300K without needing a major repair like a motor or transmission. However, whith my jeeps. I work and tweek and tune constantly. When these vehicles were designed, 10 years and 100K miles was the expect life. The new stuff is 3 times that.

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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by will e »

There is a difference between a new car, engineered from the start with EFI and with a planned warrenty compared to an after market add on EFI.
The car manufactures have lots of data on the failure points and can address them with new connections, better mounting, etc. They also bear the cost of failure with the warrenty.
An aftermarket EFI system, while well engineered, does not have the same advantage. Each installation is unique. They also don't have to deal with multi year bumper to bumper or 'drive train' warrenties.
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by deckroid »

I like carbs. Both for my Jeep and for me. Beer and salty, crunchy carbs are a must.

I have looked at upgrading, but really, unless I pop in a chevy 350 and rework everything, I don't think I am going to bother. Yet.
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by FSJ Guy »

Tatsadasayago wrote:One thing I will say in support of the older junk; they cost much less to repair after your aunt drives into a sign bullard and the SRS (Air Bags) system activates. Did you know there is an explosive charge in the seat belt reels? 250.00 each to replace used for an 02 Altima.
True. But those safety systems also help save our butts when the you-know-what hits the fan!

If the airbags blow in my Touareg, it's totaled. Front airbag(s), side curtain airbags, front seat side thorax airbag and as you mentioned, the seat belt tensioners ALL have to be replaced.

But I'd rather be alive I can complain about the fact that it was totaled!
:- )
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by Shagoneer »

will e wrote:There is a difference between a new car, engineered from the start with EFI and with a planned warrenty compared to an after market add on EFI.
The car manufactures have lots of data on the failure points and can address them with new connections, better mounting, etc. They also bear the cost of failure with the warrenty.
An aftermarket EFI system, while well engineered, does not have the same advantage. Each installation is unique. They also don't have to deal with multi year bumper to bumper or 'drive train' warrenties.
But whats the difference between upgrading to a holley TBI unit, and upgrading to a holley TA which A TON of people on the board have done?
Each Carb install is just as unique as each TBI install and very few of us have had any issues (other than tuning) related to slapping a Holley/edelbrock in place of our original motorcraft
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Re: Reliability when it comes to carbs and computers..

Post by Tatsadasayago »

FSJ Guy wrote:
Tatsadasayago wrote:One thing I will say in support of the older junk; they cost much less to repair after your aunt drives into a sign bullard and the SRS (Air Bags) system activates. Did you know there is an explosive charge in the seat belt reels? 250.00 each to replace used for an 02 Altima.
True. But those safety systems also help save our butts when the you-know-what hits the fan!

If the airbags blow in my Touareg, it's totaled. Front airbag(s), side curtain airbags, front seat side thorax airbag and as you mentioned, the seat belt tensioners ALL have to be replaced.

But I'd rather be alive I can complain about the fact that it was totaled!
:- )
A good point Ethan. I appreciated that my Aunt wasn't injured and was able to repair the car in the driveway. Myself, Since I didn't die so many times in the past, I would prefer to go behind the wheel of an FSJ, or at the hands of a jealous husband :P
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