Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

[Shwag]

(Part 1 - Intro)
Hello all. My name is Josh and a few months ago I picked up a 86 GW. When I was younger (around 21) a buddy of mine had a lifted 89 GW that was the coolest thing. I had a 67 Coupe DeVille and one weekend we swapped vehicles and I knew one day I would end up with one. Fast forward 20+ years. I began looking at picking one up a couple of years back. I saw the prices and couldn't believe how much a fairly nice conditioned one was going for. I had/have ZERO wrenching experience so I was hoping to get something that was well maintained. About a year ago I stumbled onto several FSJ forums and started reading up on all the various issues these vehicles suffer from. I kept reading over and over again about how the bad design of the Wagoneers made them susceptible to rusting. I live in SoCal so I narrowed my search to vehicles in the area. As my search continued I realized I would need to expand my search to include the entire country lol. But again anything to my untrained eye that appeared to be in good shape was EXPENSIVE, in the 20K-35K range!

A buddy of mine who I work with was trying to convince to me to pick up something as cheap as possible and then dump money into getting it to the point where I would be happy. While I have a construction background working on cars was something that was so foreign to me the thought of taking on a project that would last months or years even wasn't something that was appealing to me. I figured, pay now or pay later and decided I'd "pay now" for one of the nicer ones.

Finally back in July I located 3 Wagoneers that I had narrowed my search to. 1 in Michigan, 1 in AZ and 1 in Washington State. They were all around the same price (25K I know it's high I've read plenty of threads) and similar miles. Visually the one in Michigan was exactly what I was looking for (exterior/interior wise). So that was my 1st pick. Unfortunately once I received pics of the undercarriage I had to immediately rule it out. My next pick was the one in WA. It was lifted and the interior/exterior looked immaculate. I wasn't too crazy about the color of neither the interior or exterior but it looked perfectly straight and the back seats (based on the pics) looked like they had never been sat in. But it was in WA and I had never purchased a vehicle from out of state and that kind of made me nervous. It was also right at the top of my price range and factoring the shipping cost it would leave me with no money left in case it needed immediate attention for any mechanical issues. I decided to pursue the one in AZ because I would be able to drive to the location and spend some time getting it checked out. Based on the pics it looked well taken care of. Some noticeable rust on the tailgate, interior was in good condition and some rust underneath. While it too was at the top of my price range, I wouldn't have to pay for shipping and the owner was going to allow me to have it checked by an independent mechanic. The earliest I could go out there to visit was going to be two weeks. I got an Email a week later saying it was sold.

I was pretty bummed out and decided that I would hold off from getting a Waggy at this point. I stopped looking for about a month went back online and noticed the one in WA was still available, but they had dropped the price by 5K! First thing I thought was, what's wrong with it. It was the cleanest looking Wagoneer I had seen in the year I was looking. I called the dealer up and started asking questions. Since it had been in their inventory for a while I figured they were desperate to move it. The history on the vehicle showed it being owned by 1 owner for 25 years, in Minnesota. Next thought that popped up was RUST. The sales guy told me they had it checked out and it needed a carb tune-up and the AC wasn't working. Besides that there were a few minor cosmetic issues but that was it, it was clean. I negotiated the price down an additional 2K based on the stated issues and shipping. I asked if they could send me pics of the undercarriage and he said he'd get it on the lift and shoot me pics ASAP.

When I received the pics I immediately called him up and told him to send me the paperwork so I can sign and get it shipped. I'm not sure what they did or what any of the previous owners did but it looked like it had never seen dirt in its life. The Carfax showed it had been in one minor accident and thats it. I know Carfax can't and doesn't tell the whole story but it appeared that it exchanged several hands within a year (I'm assuming at auctions) before it got registered here in Cali and then sold (at an auction) to the dealer in WA.

My initial thought was great, if it was last registered here in Cali it should pass smog. I was feeling great! I had money left over to fix what was stated upfront and still be under what I was willing to pay. Life was good! Or so I thought

Some pics

[Shwag]

(Part 2 - Questions)
So once my GW arrived I took it for a test drive and it immediately stumbled and shut off. Knowing that the Carb needed some attention it didn't surprise me. Everything else looked exactly as advertised. After reading through a bunch of posts I decided that I would just have a TBI unit installed. The past year I gave doing my own work a try and painstakenly rebuilt the carbs on my '79 BMW and even though it started and ran much better it was nothing compared to my buddy's bikes which were newer and had fuel injection. I took it to a friend who restores old mustangs and he said that he would be able to do the upgrade for me. He convinced me that I should upgrade my intake system to a lighter more efficient unit and suggested the Edellbrock Performance Intake. In his line of work he doesn't ever have to deal with smog compliant devices but he said that he would get with the smog shop next to his shop and make sure everything was ok. After 6 weeks he said that for some reason it won't past smog. They hadn't "officially" tested it but the "numbers" were too high, specifically the CO. They believed that it was a mechanical issue, specifically the heads was their guess.

I took it to an independent mechanic who said he was familiar with the Howell TBI I had installed. He said he would go over the installation and check the compression and go from there. He said the engine was STRONG. He said the compression was 209/210 across the board. My first thought was, isn't that too high? Everything I read on the board showed compression readings anywhere from 130-175 at the most. But he was convinced that there was nothing mechanically wrong with it. I forgot to mention that my buddy believed my Waggy had been sitting for a long time as the gas was this orange color prior to him draining it. In any case the new mechanic had a shop "sniff" it again and initially they thought everything would be fine. Then after 10 or so minutes, the CO jumped from 1.55 to 10.55! They now believe that there is something wrong with a temperature sensor. After looking at the Howell install guide they do have a coolant sensor so I'm guessing that wasn't hooked up properly or not functioning properly. My question(s) are; Are they on the right track? And is the compression too high?

[REDONE]

I'm new to fuel injection myself, but I think your engine has been rebuilt with high compression pistons so you need to run premium fuel or you'll have detonation (pinging, caused by the heat of compressing the fuel/air charge rather than the spark plug). This will cause an incomplete burn resulting in dirty emissions. That's my first guess. Welcome to the fun!

[Shwag]

I'm new to fuel injection myself, but I think your engine has been rebuilt with high compression pistons so you need to run premium fuel or you'll have detonation (pinging, caused by the heat of compressing the fuel/air charge rather than the spark plug). This will cause an incomplete burn resulting in dirty emissions. That's my first guess. Welcome to the fun!

Thanks for the reply/reception. Yea when I went to go pick it up from my buddy's shop it was out of gas (after the install and smog tests). So I filled it with 91 octane. I'll keep that in mind and make sure I keep doing so.

I just got off the phone with my buddy who did the install. And after explaining what the last smog shop said he mentioned that there were some ports on the back of the new intake that were plugged that possibly some vacuum lines should/could be hooked up to. The shop that now has it is going to call Howell on Monday and see what they say. I figured I'd hit up the brain trust and see if I can pass on some trouble shooting guidelines to help him and ME (save some money lol).

[Tatsadasayago]

Welcome to the network and congrats on the really nice find!

One way to tell if the problem is mechanical or electrical is to watch the coolant temp while sniffing the exhaust. If the CO goes berserk only after the coolant reaches 165 degrees or so, you can eliminate the engine aspect. The Howell, like other EFI systems has two modes of operation: Open and Closed Loop. In Open Loop, the fuel mixture is set to a default 'map' and once coolant and oxygen sensor temps reach a certain point, the unit goes into Closed Loop. When this happens, the unit relies on feedback from it's various sensors.
I would submit that your cylinder pressures don't affect emissions and if anything this would improve things. If the Howell unit has a knock sensor REDONE's suggestion of using premium fuel is indeed a valid one.

I can't see the fresh air tube connected to the cat so assume there isn't one. It might be prudent to remove it until the emissions levels are sorted out else it will mask the true readings--which will lead you to identifying the source of the problem.

[EDIT] If the Hc, NOx, C2O and H2O levels remain constant or nearly so after your EFI goes into closed loop, this would indicate an over-rich condition caused by improper sensor signals to the ECM. Another area that could be the source of the problem is the distributor and the method in which the timing advance is controlled. It's entirely possible that once the ECM goes into closed loop that it's controlling timing along with the mechanical and vacuum advance at the dizzy. That would be no-beuno for sure.

[Shwag]

Thank you for the info. I'll double check on Monday with my mechanic to see if this (monitoring the coolant temp) is what was done. Conceptually this all is starting to make more sense, but its still extremely "new speak" for me. It's crazy how strict the laws here are. After spending a couple of days reading about CA emissions I learned that you CANNOT modify any component of and or on your engine unless 1). It has an Executive Order # or 2). Its configured exactly as it was when it rolled out of the factory. This EVEN IF THE NEW EQUIPMENT LEADS TO BETTER FUEL EFFICIENCY AND CLEANER EMISSIONS. That makes ZERO sense to me. If the end game is to have cleaner vehicles on the road, I don't understand points 1 and 2. Oh well. The mechanic was telling me that I may have hard time passing the visual because of the new intake.

Welcome to the network and congrats on the really nice find!

One way to tell if the problem is mechanical or electrical is to watch the coolant temp while sniffing the exhaust. If the CO goes berserk only after the coolant reaches 165 degrees or so, you can eliminate the engine aspect. The Howell, like other EFI systems has two modes of operation: Open and Closed Loop. In Open Loop, the fuel mixture is set to a default 'map' and once coolant and oxygen sensor temps reach a certain point, the unit goes into Closed Loop. When this happens, the unit relies on feedback from it's various sensors.
I would submit that your cylinder pressures don't affect emissions and if anything this would improve things. If the Howell unit has a knock sensor REDONE's suggestion of using premium fuel is indeed a valid one.

I can't see the fresh air tube connected to the cat so assume there isn't one. It might be prudent to remove it until the emissions levels are sorted out else it will mask the true readings--which will lead you to identifying the source of the problem.

[EDIT] If the Hc, NOx, C2O and H2O levels remain constant or nearly so after your EFI goes into closed loop, this would indicate an over-rich condition caused by improper sensor signals to the ECM. Another area that could be the source of the problem is the distributor and the method in which the timing advance is controlled. It's entirely possible that once the ECM goes into closed loop that it's controlling timing along with the mechanical and vacuum advance at the dizzy. That would be no-beuno for sure.

[tgreese]

Mmm. Punishment. Automobiles bad. Public transit good. Old cars particularly bad.

That's the current regs... the previous four decades of regulation have dramatically cleaned up the air in California, and that's a good thing. But remaining efforts are fighting against highly diminishing returns, and are nothing but virtue signalling. IMO.

[Tatsadasayago]

Your Howell system is CARB certified I am sure. There should have been a cert decal that came with the kit that displays it's EO#. If the intake is the Edelbrock Performer EGR #3731 it too has a CARB EO# and is 50 state legal.
Where things get weird is the emissions equipment...
The CARB/BAR rules are interpreted differently by each testing station. Some will allow a vehicle past the visual (Looking for OEM installed items such as AIR pump and CTO) because the EFI system is certified while others will fail the vehicle if one OEM delay valve is the wrong color. Often the station demands all OEM emissions equipment be on the vehicle but could care less it it actually functions.

An example is my 76 Z code 401 Wagoneer. It had a Performer 3731, 1406 carb and a Mallory GM style HEI ignition. The first station I visited failed the jeep because of these three items. The next shop didn't fail the jeep on the visual once I explained that the carb and intake were legal replacements for the factory parts. What I didn't tell them was the carb was not a legal replacement for the AMC 4350 but WAS legal on a GM vehile...
Taping over the Edelbrock logo on the carb and painting the intake black probably helped.

This BS is one of the many prices we pay to live in Commiefornia

[Tatsadasayago]

Oh, and should your rig fail the visual/equipment test but sniffs clean you have the option of taking it to a referee who will likely pass it.

[FSJ Guy]

If the fresh air injection system is operational and pumping fresh air into the EXHAUST manifolds instead of the cat, that can throw off the O2 sensor. You can leave it installed, but plumb the vac lines so that it only injects air into the catalytic converter, not the exhaust manifolds.

I'm not sure if that's your issue or not, but is something to look at.

Viewing the datalog when the CO spikes will tell you a lot, too.

[Tatsadasayago]

Excellent catch Ethan. I had forgotten to suggest this as a possible cause for high CO levels after closed loop.

[Shwag]

Haha. In an effort to do my part with emissions reduction I promise to only drive on weekends and holidays. And when I'm not driving my other vehicles.

Mmm. Punishment. Automobiles bad. Public transit good. Old cars particularly bad.

That's the current regs... the previous four decades of regulation have dramatically cleaned up the air in California, and that's a good thing. But remaining efforts are fighting against highly diminishing returns, and are nothing but virtue signalling. IMO.

[Shwag]

Yes you are correct. I bought the CARB certified Howell kit. We put the decal upfront. As far as the intake I'll have check with my buddy to see which one he purchased. For some reason I didn't see any in the DMVs database and when I called Howell the tech told me they did not make one that was CA compliant but it could have been in error. That would be great if they do and it's the one he purchased.
In any case I appreciate the feedback. Btw painting my intake black is exactly what the mechanic suggested and the scenario about the different stations is why he suggested I do that.
Thanks for the information.

Your Howell system is CARB certified I am sure. There should have been a cert decal that came with the kit that displays it's EO#. If the intake is the Edelbrock Performer EGR #3731 it too has a CARB EO# and is 50 state legal.
Where things get weird is the emissions equipment...
The CARB/BAR rules are interpreted differently by each testing station. Some will allow a vehicle past the visual (Looking for OEM installed items such as AIR pump and CTO) because the EFI system is certified while others will fail the vehicle if one OEM delay valve is the wrong color. Often the station demands all OEM emissions equipment be on the vehicle but could care less it it actually functions.

An example is my 76 Z code 401 Wagoneer. It had a Performer 3731, 1406 carb and a Mallory GM style HEI ignition. The first station I visited failed the jeep because of these three items. The next shop didn't fail the jeep on the visual once I explained that the carb and intake were legal replacements for the factory parts. What I didn't tell them was the carb was not a legal replacement for the AMC 4350 but WAS legal on a GM vehile...
Taping over the Edelbrock logo on the carb and painting the intake black probably helped.

This BS is one of the many prices we pay to live in Commiefornia

[Shwag]

Thanks for the info! I'll definitely pass this on. He's hoping to get back to it on Monday so I'll let everybody know what he finds. Thanks again everybody it is much appreciated!

If the fresh air injection system is operational and pumping fresh air into the EXHAUST manifolds instead of the cat, that can throw off the O2 sensor. You can leave it installed, but plumb the vac lines so that it only injects air into the catalytic converter, not the exhaust manifolds.

I'm not sure if that's your issue or not, but is something to look at.

Viewing the datalog when the CO spikes will tell you a lot, too.

[DustinLangston]

Great find. Beautiful Jeep.

[Cheap Hobby]

With your Howell system, you remove the air pump AIR tubes or at least cap the check valves. Even though the kit is universal for our rigs when it is ordered the intake, compression and cam information is needed. Make sure the brass tag with the E.October. number was installed the yellow sticker in the kit dose not have the number. The install manual has very clear pictures for the only hoses you need, it may be worth it to go through it with your mechanic to make sure all were hooked up correctly. With your compression numbers and jeeps cross country dealer trades it sounds like the engine was rebuilt. You may have to pull a plug and use an inspection camera to to look at the top of the piston to see if it is flat, dished or domed. As for finding the intake listed on the C.A.R.B. Web site you won't. The state is no longer updating the site or publishing E.October numbers. The E.October. for the manifold expired and was not renewed. It has a buck approval for older engines that you can not get parts for. As current numbers expire they will be dropped iffy the state cleans the site. Last time I looked it had not been touched in 4 years .

[Shwag]

Thanks Dustin. I love it.

Great find. Beautiful Jeep.

[Shwag]

Thanks for the info and suggestions. I'll double check if that info was passed onto Howell at the time my buddy ordered the kit. I believe it was, but I could be mistaken. We're hoping to go over everything again this week and I'll see if my mechanic can check the pistons as you suggest. Thanks again!

With your Howell system, you remove the air pump AIR tubes or at least cap the check valves. Even though the kit is universal for our rigs when it is ordered the intake, compression and cam information is needed. Make sure the brass tag with the E.October. number was installed the yellow sticker in the kit dose not have the number. The install manual has very clear pictures for the only hoses you need, it may be worth it to go through it with your mechanic to make sure all were hooked up correctly. With your compression numbers and jeeps cross country dealer trades it sounds like the engine was rebuilt. You may have to pull a plug and use an inspection camera to to look at the top of the piston to see if it is flat, dished or domed. As for finding the intake listed on the C.A.R.B. Web site you won't. The state is no longer updating the site or publishing E.October numbers. The E.October. for the manifold expired and was not renewed. It has a buck approval for older engines that you can not get parts for. As current numbers expire they will be dropped iffy the state cleans the site. Last time I looked it had not been touched in 4 years .

[Shwag]

Well I just got off the phone with my mechanic and he/they (he spoke with Howell's tech support) seem to think that the system is not going into a closed loop. I believe that's kind of what Tatsadasayago was pointing to. The funny thing (according to my mechanic) is that the ECM code is suggesting that its running too lean.

One thing I didn't mention previously is that my buddy installed the O2 sensor after the two exhaust manifolds connect. I had read this or another forum that it shouldn't be that far back and if it was, the ECM would need to be re-programmed due to the factory settings not set for the additional latency. Is it possible that it's causing the issues?

[Tatsadasayago]

Like a GM TBI system, the ECM will only go into closed loop when the engine coolant temp sensor reaches 140-160 degrees and the O2 sensor either reaches a certain temp or begins sending a minimum voltage to it. Your kit should have a Heated EGO sensor by the way.
The old school trick to confirm closed loop was to connect a timing light then give the block or head a nice little swat with a hammer. If the ECM was in closed loop the timing would retard every time the hammer struck.

You are correct that the O2 sensor is way too far down the pipe to get an accurate reading. IIRC the sensor the Howell system uses works best when it's within 2-3 inches of the header flange. Add that to possible A.I.R. and EGR gasses entering the exhaust, it's easy to see why the ECM is seeing a lean condition. Placing the O2 sensor on one side of the engine is common on TBI engines. The assumption is that the opposite bank of cylinders are running the same.