Oh, for the love of Pete....

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Shagoneer
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

Post by Shagoneer »

66stepside wrote: On another note, what’s the story on the diesel they’re going to use? Good, bad, marginal- or??
This is mostly because I live in a farming town and deal with work trucks all the time, but in my opinion a diesel is only worthwhile if it says CUMMINS in big letters on the side.
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REDONE
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

Post by REDONE »

Shagoneer wrote:
66stepside wrote: On another note, what’s the story on the diesel they’re going to use? Good, bad, marginal- or??
This is mostly because I live in a farming town and deal with work trucks all the time, but in my opinion a diesel is only worthwhile if it says CUMMINS in big letters on the side.
Yeah, I'm sorry to be a Debby downer, but there will never be another "good diesel", and it is by necessity. I remember my dads old square dodge Ram250, in green and tan with the old cummins. I called it "The Duck Truck" because is was duck's unlimited colors and the exhaust sounded like it was quacking (quack-quack-quack). I loved that truck, there wasn't a stump it couldn't pull and it could go from Grand Junction to Salt Lake City and back and still drive around for another week before needed to top off the tank.

But in the big picture, we all share the same air. I can buy a wrench and be buried with it, but when I take a breath, as soon as I exhale it belongs to everyone else again. Diesel exhaust is worse than gas exhaust, it makes way more soot and ozone which are not only worse to breath, but are heavy and hang out down at ground level where us people are instead of floating up into the stratosphere where UV can break it down. Diesels haven't been regulated as hard as gassers because commerce relies on Diesel. The vast majority of people can walk, ride a bike, or take mass transit to where they need to be (even though we don't want to), but all those semis, locomotives, and ocean liners need to keep moving, so diesel hasn't been choked as bad, but now that's changing. Technology is trying to keep up, with exhaust fluids and catalytic converters, but other technologies are advancing faster. Locomotives are due for a renaissance, with the decline of coal they're looking for cargo and the technology already exists to take them off fossil fuels (although not yet cost effective). Autonomous vehicles are going to replace truck drivers before we know it, so nobody will notice when long haul logistics gets off the interstates and back onto the rails.

The point being, as diesel becomes less and less necessary, it's negative effects become less and less bearable. If you want a Jeep with a "good ol' diesel", about all you can do is what Jaber is doing.
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Lumpskie
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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The VM diesels are ok... but not on par with a Cummins in my book. My opinion is that, with a little ingenuity, diesels will be better than gas engines both in MPG and emissions soon. A few years back, people said there was no way to get gas engines down without ridiculous equipment (smog pump) that kills efficiency. Now, high flow systems give gas cars incredible emmisions. Here's an article that shows how the a 2011 Ford Raptor emitted less pollution than a Fiat 500 and WAY less than lawn equipment:

https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/fea ... lower.html

I think diesels are following suit. I believe that DEF is a crappy (smog pumpy) active emmisions system that will, hopefully, be replaced by a better, passive system. Look at the Cummins 2.8RS. It doesn't need DEF and meets Tier 1 emissions. Plus, it would get over 30 mpg in a Full Size Jeep, I believe. (I know of TJ guys getting 35 mpg and over) I've got a Toyota mechanical diesel in my 80 series that I'm still tuning. The gas engine got 13 mpg and I'm getting just under 20 now. Once tuned I am expecting MPG close to 25, even with non-required cats installed. 25 mpg, 400+ ft-lbs of torque in a 6000 lb, 22 year old vehicle? That's not too bad.

As for electric motors... I can't get excited about them until we get battery technology that avoids hazardous materials, both in the battery makeup and in the extraction/mining process. I think we'll solve those problems, but I don't see those hurdles being overcome before NOx. Just my two cents.
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REDONE
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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Lumpskie wrote:
As for electric motors... I can't get excited about them until we get battery technology that avoids hazardous materials, both in the battery makeup and in the extraction/mining process. I think we'll solve those problems, but I don't see those hurdles being overcome before NOx. Just my two cents.
I completely agree! It's bad enough that everyone is cruising around with half an ounce of lithium in their pocket, the last thing we need is everyone hauling around 40 pounds of it behind the back seat!
Lithium is as bad or worse for the human body than lead or mercury.
Lithium oxides burn without oxygen. Once they light you can't put them out.
For those reasons, lithium batteries can't be recycled. They get shipped to east Asia, thrown in a pile and burned for all of us to breathe in.
In the over-arching metaproblem if energy storage lithium batteries may be a necessary step but it's one I hope we move past with a quickness.
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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66stepside wrote:On another note, what’s the story on the diesel they’re going to use? Good, bad, marginal- or??
The 3.0L EcoDiesel has been a pretty decent engine. There was a few issues early on that seemed to have been fixed since then. They were pulled from production for about 10 months because the EPA found a bit of software that they didn't like. Basically if things were in a situation where the engine was going to destroy itself, it would fall back to a safe tune to save the engine, but caused tons of emissions (This was during VW Gate). So FCA had to make some changes to it, and they are now re-certified.

There are guys with Ram's getting well over 30mpg with them. Wranglers are less aerodynamic, so I would only expect upper 20's. But 420lb ft of torque would sure be nice for a mid size.
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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REDONE wrote:
Lumpskie wrote:
As for electric motors... I can't get excited about them until we get battery technology that avoids hazardous materials, both in the battery makeup and in the extraction/mining process. I think we'll solve those problems, but I don't see those hurdles being overcome before NOx. Just my two cents.
I completely agree! It's bad enough that everyone is cruising around with half an ounce of lithium in their pocket, the last thing we need is everyone hauling around 40 pounds of it behind the back seat!
Lithium is as bad or worse for the human body than lead or mercury.
Lithium oxides burn without oxygen. Once they light you can't put them out.
For those reasons, lithium batteries can't be recycled. They get shipped to east Asia, thrown in a pile and burned for all of us to breathe in.
In the over-arching metaproblem if energy storage lithium batteries may be a necessary step but it's one I hope we move past with a quickness.
I love electric vehicles, and really like Tesla. BUT.... fuel cells cannot come fast enough. Lithium mining is SOOOOO bad for the environment.
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greatplns
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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I like the 3.0 Ecodiesel. I have a Ram with one, a Grand Cherokee with one and 4 in Rams in our work fleet. Granted, they are not what you’d typically think a diesel to be, but for the application they’re outstanding. My Ram is a ‘15 and I’ve put on 87,xxx completely trouble free miles. Lifetime average mpg is currently 27.6. It pulls a car hauler trailer respectably well, but it is definitely not a Cummins or Duramax or power stroke. But it is quiet, clean, low vibration with a 660+ mile range. I’m completely satisfied with mine and think it will be a fine motor in the wrangler. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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Batteries... good for the environment and bad for gas heads? Nope. Bad all the way around. Lithium is not mined in the normal sense, but rather pumped to the surface and allowed to dry in the sun, becoming lithium carbonate. As of 2015, there was only 1 country in the world with lax enough environmental laws to refine it to Lithium Ion. You guessed it. China. Ever seen pics of smog in China?

Image

Image

Now, I don't live in China. Their air quality has nothing to do with my air quality in Idaho. Some day it might, though.

And let us not forget that we need to charge these batteries and we don't do that by magic pixie dust. We need to plug these bad boys into our power grid. Where does your power come from? And is our infrastructure stout enough to handle if every household went to an electric car in the garage?

Image

I am fortunate enough to live in an area that is 90% hydro powered. The other 10% is natural gas. Now, before anyone accuses me of being a Radical Greener in Idaho (which has been known to start a few fights, wish I was kidding) I like gas, I like natural gas, I like diesel. If I need to move animals from one area to another, I am going to use my diesel truck. My F150 isn't going to pull 10 head of cattle anywhere. So if they DO put a diesel in the new Jeep, I am still ok with that. And if I did own an electric car, owning my Grand Wagoneer would counter balance the "Footprint" enough to average out to 2 low-ish emission vehicles. :-bd

Oh, and BTW... My wife wants to fly to Italy and buy a Fiat with one of those 3 banger diesel engines that get close to 80mpg and ship it back. Personally, I think she could buy quite a bit of gas for what it's going to cost to fly to Italy and back with a Fiat as luggage. I am sure they won't let it be carry on.
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Shagoneer
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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As far as charging goes, Tesla has announced that theyre going to build completely solar charging stations to work alongside their new fleet of semis. So that helps a bit, but mining the Li for their batteries is still horrid. Plus dont forget that once he lithium is mined it is then shipped back and forth between a ton of different countries in order to build the battery packs for the tesla.
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Lumpskie
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

Post by Lumpskie »

This site is cool. When I made my post about electric motors, I expected to get lectured about how electric was the end-all answer. Your responses were thoughtful.

Thanks guys.
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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Shagoneer wrote:As far as charging goes, Tesla has announced that theyre going to build completely solar charging stations to work alongside their new fleet of semis. So that helps a bit, but mining the Li for their batteries is still horrid. Plus dont forget that once he lithium is mined it is then shipped back and forth between a ton of different countries in order to build the battery packs for the tesla.
Is it still true a solar cell never produces enough energy to replace what it took to manufacture it?
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

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Im not sure about that, I know that Wind energy replaces the original energy and monetary investments rather quickly. Id assume that the solar cells do as well just based of their mass usage (but then that would also make sense so probably not)
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REDONE
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

Post by REDONE »

I think that was true when solar cells were made with Platinum, but I'm pretty sure they figured out a cheaper material since then.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
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T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.
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Stuka
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

Post by Stuka »

SJTD wrote:Is it still true a solar cell never produces enough energy to replace what it took to manufacture it?
Newer cells have come WAY down in price, and their ROI is not too bad. But wind is currently the cheapest to produce and get ROI on.
Shagoneer wrote:As far as charging goes, Tesla has announced that theyre going to build completely solar charging stations to work alongside their new fleet of semis. So that helps a bit, but mining the Li for their batteries is still horrid. Plus dont forget that once he lithium is mined it is then shipped back and forth between a ton of different countries in order to build the battery packs for the tesla.
The gigafactory will be building all of their solar cells. Its not fully up and going yet, just partially. My uncle has been driving over there pretty regularly as his company is building equipment for them.

I will be curious to see how long it is before fuel cells (or some other technology) really start getting used.

Oh, and while this topic has gone way off the original topic, going to leave it. Its a good conversion.
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Oh, for the love of Pete....

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

I'm down for solar tubes. The alge which grows inside them must be cleaned and when harvested makes Excellent biodiesel material.


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