What makes a rig reliable?

[rlars7]

This could end up being a lengthy and dumb question but humor me. I am a very ammature mechanic but was thinking today - what exactly makes a Toyota, Honda, etc more reliable that a Jeep, Ford, Chevy, etc? Got to thinking about the old addage that Japanese is always more reliable - I know that the proof is in the number of cars and trucks on the road but why?

Is it the materials that each is made with? Build quality? Maintainance? Superior engineering?

Just curious.

-Rob

[Lumpskie]

I'm not absolutely sure on that but, I do know that the quality of the metals used on my Hondas and Toyota are generally higher than the Wagoneer. (My only domestic vehicle) Tolerances seem to be tighter as well.

[Tatsadasayago]

I can sort of sum it up with a comparison.

Jeep Master Cylinder: 25.00 - 75.00 depending on the year.
Honda Master Cylinder: 300.00 - 500.00 depending on the year.

Percentage of 1978 Honda Civics still on the road: 18%
Percentage of 1978 Jeeps on the road: 44%

Japanese imports are legendary for going many miles with little maintenance and few mechanical failures. They run then they don't.
Jeeps are legendary for going very few miles without mechanical failures and require continuous maintenance. They run then they sort of run but still run.

[Gumby]

I say this is mostly based on individual preferences. Reliability is a direct reflection into driving characteristics as well as maintenance, the average import vehicle owner usually takes them in for routine/ scheduled maintenance. Most of my vehicles have been domestics (dependent on where in the World I am living at the time), reason being is that parts are usually available and much cheaper than an import item.

I will rock any vehicle from anywhere, as long as I am close to the supplier of best replacement parts and not an OEM replacement either.

[racerx12003r1]

I have to agree with Tats. I can kind of lump Jeeps and Harley Davidsons in the same arena. Look how many old (i'm talking 1940-1970s) H-Ds there are out there compared to the Asian bikes. I still have my 66 XLCH Chopper I got when I was in my 20s. (ofcourse I do have a 69 Yamaha too) Heck, my cousin finally got around to putting his 57 Panhead back together he bought back in the late 60s. I dont look ad working on these old vehicles as WORK, it's more a labor of love. My own mom told people (talking about me) "He would rather work on something old and make it run like new than to buy something new"

[lindel]

To put it bluntly...not breaking down.

Jeeps, especially of the FSJ generation, weren't any less reliable than their competition, but you're talking about a vehicle that at it's newest is about 24 years old. Given the age of most FSJ's, if it can even sit in the driveway without falling apart, I'd call that an accomplishment.

Do any of us really know how the Jeeps we own were maintained before we got our greasy paws on them? In most cases, no. It's been my experience that most FSJ's go about 150,000 to 175,000 miles without any major engine problems, but the attachments can be more problematical. IF you were to take a GW or other FSJ and completely rebuild it from the ground up, I dare say it would be fairly reliable, if you were to give it fuel injection and some of the other "modern" conveniences, update some of the electronics and electricals it would probably be as mechanically reliable as any vehicle on the road today, and with a lot more character.

Basically, most here are comparing apples to oranges. We each bought one because it appealed to us at some level...do the current batch of imports and domestics jump out and grab us like our Jeeps do?

[lindel]

This could end up being a lengthy and dumb question but humor me. I am a very ammature mechanic but was thinking today - what exactly makes a Toyota, Honda, etc more reliable that a Jeep, Ford, Chevy, etc? Got to thinking about the old addage that Japanese is always more reliable - I know that the proof is in the number of cars and trucks on the road but why?

Is it the materials that each is made with? Build quality? Maintainance? Superior engineering?

Just curious.

-Rob

A light-hearted quip to the superiority of Japanese cars...

97% of all Japanese imports built are still on the road today...the rest made it home.

[Tatsadasayago]

Back in my dealership days we had a customer who owned an OLD Kaiser Jeepster looking thing called a Kaiser Willhelm and a 62 wagoneer that was the 2nd one produced.

The owner was meticulous and religious about maintenance. I was 'chosen' to be the only one who worked on his vehicles because my dad had the honor before I started working there.
Apparently this guy was once some mucky-muck at Kaiser/Willys then later AMC and had quite a bit of knowledge about the engineering aspects of the vehicles and put it to use regularly. At specific mileage (and hours--both vehicles had Hobbs meters) he would have me replace or rebuild certain components whether they were in good shape or not.

One day I asked him about this and he told me he knew the expected miles/hours MBT, which meant Mean time Between Failure. In short, the engineers concluded that a given part had an average miles or hours in which it was likely to fail in normal use. This guy had all that info and applied it regardless of the costs. We did the same thing in aviation so I understood his reasoning...to a degree, but I wasn't stupid wealthy like he was

Between my dad and I, over a period between 1973 and 1991, every wear part on both those rigs had been replaced or rebuilt at least once.
I can't remember his name to save my life, but he died in 1991 and I don't know what happened to those vehicles sadly.
The cool part of this whole story is that both had well over 500,000 miles each and the only failures either had were flat tires on both, the Wagoneer lost a wiper motor and heater control cable while the Kaiser suffered a distributor advance plate failure while he was driving it from Paris to Madrid!

Now THATS reliable!

[serehill]

Maintenance getting rid of the bad technology & replace with what doesn't work & what works. Don't abuse it. If you can't make it better why waste your time? New technology can not only make it cool it can remove the weaknesses that make it not dependable. 70's technology can't touch todays so use it to your advantage. If it's forty years old & not rebuilt it's you'r enext break down. So to break it all down to one simple solution.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Tatsadasayago]

A good comparison is between carb'd points and EFI with digital spark control. The only aspect where the points win is they will work after an EMP blast or after sitting in a barn forty years.
I agree that judicious application of newer technology enhances reliability.

[letank]

A bit long but it is a direct confirmation of what is said above.

Indeed the Imports where better built metal, specs and electrical circuit protection, they also suffered more abuse, if we talk about motorcycles, I had a Suzuki 250cc 2 stroke in 71, and my friends had the yamaha and kawasaki equivalent, and the poor dude with the norton always had to stop for roadside repairs... the ducati would jettison spare parts while driving... the bmw was too expensive for us. Then we moved to the 500 and 750 japanese bikes... check the oil, and maintain tire pressure, that was it. And yes the redline would commonly be reached... what can you expect from young males in their prime... but we did not keep them more than 3 years, usually an encounter with a car would total them.

Back to cars, I was lucky to get the 74 w under 80K and 10 years whose owner was a woman...

The few road failures that happened were really after 150K, I could anticipate them, getting hard to start, time for a tune up, or check. Battery taking too long to charge... obvious.

Rear differential bearings at 120K for a 12 year old vehicle... and not too sure if I got taken for a ride , but the rear is still holding at 349K.

Collapsed lifter at 180K, was the real mechanical issue. That rasping sound... muffler too close to the transmission shaft. Did I mention the cab overheating... that was a challenge... weak EGR, partially opened.... so the engine was running super lean on the dowhill from donner pass to Sacramento... even in 70 degree weather we were cooking... by the heat transfer from the exhaust manifold, that did not crack...

Gelling gas in the carb was another tricky one to debug.

I still have the OEM engine and trany, but I am starting to get some blow by.... but the trany is not leaking.

Of course most of everything has been replaced a few times... just like the honda.

The most recent recalls show us that nothing is a proof of a sturdy workmanship... from the imports, then as said , the imports seems to need very expensive scheduled maintenance, a friend noticed the $1900 cylinder head work -forgot the exact part... valve seals IIRC) on a acura at 200K. Same for the top performer motorcycles of orange color...

But even in the mid 80's I remember the timing belt specs to be changed at 70K for about 2 or 3 monthly car payments, because the recommandation was the $20 belt, plus the $80 water pump and $20 tensioner with the $400 labor... so I became an expert at doing the job, but replaced the water pump every other time. That car died of failure by the son to observe the rising temp and kept driving until the head gasket gave up... but at 210K it was time to let it go, as the trany was showing signs of impeding doom.

So when It was time for a econo box 3 years ago ... I got a mid 80s civic from a very good friend... because it was rust free unlike the FSJs and I still had the shop manual. But still, I got some surpri$e$ from a basic car.

[Lumpskie]

WARNING: *JAPANESE CAR GUY HERE*


My thought generally line up with everyone here except with maintenance costs... Where are you guys getting those numbers? I owned a 1989 Honda accord for over ten years and the only maintenance costs were new brakes, a new clutch and changing fluids. (which I never did at the schedules intervals because I was totally car ignorant at the time) It ran up to near 250,000 miles and I probably had about $2000 total in maintenance costs when I got rid of it. Same thing with my current 1996 Toyota Tacoma. I'm at 25X,0000 miles on that truck and my only maintenance costs have been 1 clutch ($200 for the clutch and it lasted 180,000 miles), 1 timing belt, a water pump, brakes and fluids. Total maintenance costs on my truck is probably around $1500 at this point. Plus I know of two guys who have now reached the 650,000 mile mark on their 3.4 V6s without any work on their engines other than scheduled, basic maintenance. I guess my point is that, in my experience, Japanese parts are slightly more expensive, but not that much. The real key is just being able to do the work yourself.

[Tatsadasayago]

I am the original owner of a 2002 Nissan Altima V6 that is rolling up on 115k miles. I take care of it and follow the maintenance schedule to the letter.
In the 12 years I've owned it the only failures were an AC hardline, hood release cable and spark plugs causing misfires.

I prefer driving it over the old Cherokee most of the time because in my old age comfort is more important.
I would have to say that yes, Japanese imports are simply better engineered, assembled and made from excellent materials. I cannot compare the Altima to the Cherokee in many ways, but would love to be around in 30 more years to see which vehicle withstood the test of time and use.

I bet my old Jeep will outlive and outlast my Altima

[BugsInMyTeeth]

My own mom told people (talking about me) "He would rather work on something old and make it run like new than to buy something new"

I think that statement describes roughly 100% of the people here

[rlars7]

I like the discussion here. I agree that a large number of parts on our rigs are outdated and questionable to begin with. By replacing, we prolong the life and enjoyability of our rides. It is interesting to me that so many people hold the belief that Japanese cars just 'work' and will be ont he road forever. At some point, numbers don't lie.

One thing that sticks out to me are the SUVs built in the mid 90s through early 2000s. I'm talking domestic - Explorers, Blazers, Tahoes, etc. I don't want to offend anyone that has these vehicles (a two door, 99 Tahoe is on a short list for me) but it seems that most domestics trucks from this era stink. The insides feel cheap when compared to their Japanese counterparts. Electronics have a life of their own. A buddy of mine had to get a new GM crate engine and tranny for his Tahoe at 86k miles.

What caused this big drop off in quality in these years? A blend of old and new tech? Too much tech too fast? Bad build materials?

It does seem that domestic reliability and toughness is light years better than it use to be.

-Rob

[Lumpskie]

^The '80s and '90s were the era of "Faster, Cheaper, Better" in the USA. (We learned that you can only do 2 of the 3) Meanwhile, the Japanese manufacturers were following the "Total Quality Management" process. In the end, the Japanese products were created with higher quality materials, better tolerances, and (in general) more advanced technologies (metal treatments, better electronics, etc.)

The cool thing, though, is that the U.S. has ditched "Faster, Cheaper, Better" and has now almost caught up in process technology, which is impressive! The quality of modern domestics compared to the 90's is very impressive!

[lindel]

I like the discussion here. I agree that a large number of parts on our rigs are outdated and questionable to begin with. By replacing, we prolong the life and enjoyability of our rides. It is interesting to me that so many people hold the belief that Japanese cars just 'work' and will be ont he road forever. At some point, numbers don't lie.

One thing that sticks out to me are the SUVs built in the mid 90s through early 2000s. I'm talking domestic - Explorers, Blazers, Tahoes, etc. I don't want to offend anyone that has these vehicles (a two door, 99 Tahoe is on a short list for me) but it seems that most domestics trucks from this era stink. The insides feel cheap when compared to their Japanese counterparts. Electronics have a life of their own. A buddy of mine had to get a new GM crate engine and tranny for his Tahoe at 86k miles.

What caused this big drop off in quality in these years? A blend of old and new tech? Too much tech too fast? Bad build materials?

It does seem that domestic reliability and toughness is light years better than it use to be.

-Rob

Part of it was simply that people would buy the crap they were selling. The early 90s Ford truck was, IMO, one of the ugliest things on the road, and was uglier inside than out. It simply didn't look like a pickup as far as I was concerned.

By the early 2000, most of the domestic manf had seen the light and started upping their quality and reliability. Due in large part to the market share the imports were getting, and the fact that their own sales had dropped dramatically. The one exception to this was probably Jeep, simply because no one sold anything to really compete with them.

I can say this, my own experience with an early 2000 vehicle was an '03 Silverado that I bought new. I had it for roughly 8 years and put over 231,000 miles on it. Aside from normal wear items I only had to replace the water pump and fuel pump in that 8 year stretch, both of them at around 200,000 miles. It didn't owe me anything when I traded it in on the 99 TJ.

I still don't think it's really fair to compare our FSJs to more modern imports, or even modern domestics. The comparison needs to be with vehicles of the same generation. Most of those weren't any more, or any less, reliable. The big change in vehicle reliability came after the use of computers and computer controlled fuel injection. Our rides never made it there.

[Nikkormat]

I recently found my great grandpas maintenance records for his 1975 International 1210 4x4 with the 392. It had over 600k in the book when he decided he was to old to drive it anymore and sent it back up to Idaho. Here is every part he replaced in that time...

- One engine and transmission overhaul at 300k "To Prevent Mechanical Degradation and Downtime" His IH dealer did it for something ridiculous, $679.89 in 1990 dollars!:shock: If I remember right, they were "just happy to see it on the road" he said.
- Cap and rotor eight times, 70 sets of unipoints, and spark plugs and wires 7 times.
- 6 sets of brakes, he always did the whole setup at once (drums, pads, discs)
- High pressure line on the PWS pump
- One clutch, because "I though 300k was enough"
- Fuel filter at every 100k
- 70 headlights, one set a year
- Shift Knob, Because it faded
- He made a new set of battery cables from scraps at work because he didn't like the old ones.
- 13 Batteries, over the course of 35 years
- One headlight switch the went all hiroshima on him.

And that is it besides fluid changes and other minor consumables that he didn't bother writing down... So my point is this, that truck never saw a day of in 35 years of operation. He drove it like he stole it every day too! but because everything was always working and checked it never had the chance to fail. Besides wear parts like lifters and points sets he only had two faulty parts fail. A PWS line at 15K and a headlight switch at 400K. None of the others did because they were being just as intended, for constant duty cycle use. That darned cornbinder was made to work, and work it did!


Reliable cars are reliable when they are doing what they were designed for. Japanese economy cars are made to be beat to BEEP and then maintained my an expert. So there reliable when they are done like that. 90's american cars were designed to make money for the big three on initial sales and then maintenance, so that is just what they do. Our old American Motors trucksters were made to be reliable every day, but most of them haven't been driven enough throughout there lives to maintain this expected reliability. So if you keep on trucking and wrenching, you'll get her back there eventually.

[cruiserguy]

When my dad was a teacher at a tech college, his friend who is an engineer worked for a company who supplied starters for GM back in the 80s. GM asked toyota to build some starters for them. GM told toyota that a 20% failure rate was acceptable. That was a foreign idea to toyota. When they completed the contract, they had two stack of boxes. The GM rep asked why two different stacks. The Toyota rep told the GM rep that one stack was guaranteed to work and the other will guarantee to fail. Japanese car companies use higher quality parts and have higher standards. They also don't have the huge bloated unions that the big 3 have. What was it, a couple years ago a bunch of jeep factory workers were caught smoking dope and drinking alcohol on their break, but they couldn't be fired.


"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
— George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788

[cruiserguy]

A good comparison is between carb'd points and EFI with digital spark control. The only aspect where the points win is they will work after an EMP blast or after sitting in a barn forty years.
I agree that judicious application of newer technology enhances reliability.

That's not true. They have shown that electronic ignition is not effected by an emp.


"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
— George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788