Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

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Cataldo
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Location: San Bernardino, California

Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Cataldo »

Currently I have a 260hp 350 (Gm crate motor) in my 75. I have a 700r4 that is set up for the Q/T that is in it. 3.54 gears. I was initially going to build a vortec 350 and swap it in to increase the power and fuel efficiency (Possibly). More and More I am thinking about running a 6.5 TD instead. Knocking down low 20's mpg sounds awesome. My only experience with the 6.2/6.5 diesels is driving my old bosses 96ish quad cab duely 6.5 TD. To my knowledge it is stone stock with 200,000+ miles on it. Fast is not in its vocabulary, but it does well enough. I never got on it, just driving to the dump/Home depot/exc.

I understand some of the limitations that the 6.5 has mostly lack of power and horror stories of cracked blocks/heads/crank, Susceptibility to overheating. The allure of 'awesome' fuel mileage and possibly easy swap along with very affordable costs is strong.

It will tow plenty well anything I plan on the most being a car on a car trailer, I feel that the Wagoneer itself will be the limiting factor towing wise.

Since I am starting from scratch and am in no hurry I can pick and choose to get the best reasonable set up. I was thinking of aiming for a 92-93 6.5 td to eliminate any and all wiring possible. I want to be able to use this not just as a Daily Drive, a seldom tow vehicle, but an accomplished exploration vehicle.
-How well does a mildly modified 6.5 work off road? I would assume quite well but never want to assume
-When does the 6.5 get all of the electrical control stuff? 1994 got the electronic controlled injector pump, is that it or did it gain a brain too?
-What all is needed from the donor vehicle?
-What/how bad is the heater box to factory turbo set up clearance? What have y'all done to remedy this problem? Convert to Vintage Air underdash set ups? Relocate Turbo?

The ever important question How much roughly did your swap cost? Obviously how much money you put into the motor varies greatly.

I plan on pulling it apart and rebuilding it completely, port and polish heads/intake/exhaust, Balance rotating assembly fairly standard patience filled rebuild. I Do not plan on running the stock turbo, but plan on a mild upgrade if budget allows. In a perfect world I'd like to break 300 Fly Wheel HP and maybe 500 lb ft. In reality 250 Hp is my goal. Drivability, Durability and Fuel Mileage take precedence over 'ultimate power'.
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare
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Cataldo
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Cataldo »

I have seen that numerous people build turbo 6.2's as well. What is the advantage of this? Less initial cost of buying a core?

Also from what I have gathered 1994 on the 6.5's gained a brain of sorts, I am assuming that if one were to run a DB2 mechanical Injection Pump on a 94+ motor then the 'brain' (Electronic injection pump module) would be eliminated.
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare
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Cataldo
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Cataldo »

So it seems that many people run 6.2s because the blocks are stronger that a majority of 6.5s. More meat and better metallurgy. Also they cost less. A cording to my local pick a part a diesel is about $450 out the door. More for a turbo (which I plan on running something better than the gm4)
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare
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ThunderWagon
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by ThunderWagon »

Sorry, not much advice, experience, or information here but I'm subscribing because this swap is something I have considered as well. :fsj:

A bud in college had a '94 6.5TD 2wd truck, it wasn't the fastest thing around but it moved pretty well and got mid 20's for average driving. I'm pretty sure it had some sort of electronic controls but not sure of the details. I think the PMD(?) is a somewhat common failure point from heat/vibration on the later 6.5's due to the original mounting location on top of the engine, but aside from that they are generally reliable.

I would love to do a 4BT or 4BD swap but the cost has gotten pretty out of sight, if you can even find one.. The 6.2/6.5's are still pretty common & affordable and it seems like the swap would be relatively simple.

I need to get my Cherk back on the road before I get ahead of myself with a diesel swap. :banghead:
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig
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Cataldo
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Cataldo »

Yeah I have so far been unable to talk myself out of it yet. What I need to crunch is the cost of building a 6.2/6.5 to 250+ HP and a Duramax swap. Right off the bat they eclipse my power needs, just expensive as all sin. Also I do not know how easy that swap would be.

I also have not found out if there is a viable benefit to the PMD controlled IP, I know that some people convert theirs to the older mechanical injector pump.
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare
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Cataldo
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Cataldo »

OK So what I am tentatively coming up with is a 6.5, since it is designed as a Turbo Diesel the heads and pistons seem to be better designed for boost. If I can locate a Banks Sidewinder manifold for an affordable price I might go that route, or replace the factory heater and small Vintage Air under dash unit with a full V.A. heater/ac assembly under the dash. Heat and Air are pretty low down on my list of concerns.

So far what I am thinking is:

6.5
Mechanical DB2 Injector Pump
HX35 turbo or maybe the ATT turbo if I want to spend more money
Rebuild
ARP Studs
work over the heads and intake (Port and polish good valve job exc)
Balance the Rotating assembly.
replace and upgrade Injectors as is necessary

I have not decided on a final compression ratio or a Stock cam or mild aftermarket cam at the cost of off idle torque (Not a tow rig, mostly a DD and trail runner/exploration vehicle
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare

prairiejeeper
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:06 am

Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by prairiejeeper »

I am likely going with the 92/93 mechanical 6.5 option. I do know from my experience that upping the power in any diesel will cut down on reliability and longevity, I would only risk a mild bump up if I were to use a block similar to the Optimizer 6500 from General Engine Products. Otherwise stock is the name of the game. Adding power to these engines won't help your fuel economy, the design was meant for MPG and it succeeded from the start. My only dilemma is which transmission to maximize the fuel economy. So many to choose from.
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Cataldo
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Cataldo »

Oh yeah. I'll probably use my 700r4 unless I can score a np4500.

Yeah leaving well enough alone is not really in my vocabulary. Finding a 6.5 for a good price has been troublesome so far.

What would y'all consider a fair price for a complete 6.5?
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare

Nikkormat
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Nikkormat »

A stock 6.2 with some headwork and a banks turbo kit would be a fun choice for an FSJ. Especially with overdrive.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.
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hutcho
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by hutcho »

Member sad day panda has a 6.2 with a 6.5 turbo for sale. Quite a bit of work done from what I understand.
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hutcho
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by hutcho »

I think he wants 800.
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TrenchFoot
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by TrenchFoot »

Speaking from some experience here, but my swap hasn't actually started yet so take this all with a grain of salt. My wife says I can't get in my race car until this swap is finished, so it'll happen before summer of this year. I am 4+ years into my 6.2 rebuild, this isn't my only hobby!

I bought the best 6.2 I could find: 599 block casting out of a '93 P30 stepvan. No emissions, highest power injectors, pump, and precups. Best casting of the block and heads (no cracks in mine). I didn't need to rebuild it, but did. After rebuilding and amassing parts I'm in over $8500 including a Banks Sidewinder kit which was discontinued a few months ago. About $1500 is tied up in a TH400 rebuild and parts that I chose to set aside for a 700r4 to pick up OD. And my QT adapter price isn't included since Novak gave me a prototype for helping with cores and measurements.

You could do this build a lot cheaper using a used engine and turbo, but don't deny the nickel and dime costs of a rebuild. I tried to stay cheap but high quality. We all think we're experts on finding a deal online right? I feel I am! Well, I've kept a spreadsheet of every gasket, bolt and tube of sealant and it adds up. A swap + rebuild of any kind isn't cheap. If you start pouring performance parts in your budget will go way up.

I want a diesel Jeep, I really, really do. But the financial realities of just swapping in an LS engine make it impossible to ignore. If I were to go back in time 4 years I'd start with a used 6.0 LS and 4L80 and be done with it. The 4L80 will even take a QT output shaft out of a TH400. Cheap, easy to work on, good mileage and a world of aftermarket support out there.

Sure diesel is cool. I can brag that my engine will run with no computer and only one wire is needed (let's ignore the starter and glow plugs for now). Mileage may be a touch better than an LS (maybe not) but I'll sacrifice power for that mileage.

If you absolutely must go GM diesel, take another look at a 599 block 6.2. The 6.5s didn't have any real advantage other than the turbo, and fitment is of that turbo is dicey. For that extra .3L you inherit PMD and computer issues and sacrifice mileage. Or take a look at van turbo 6.5s, their packaging is better. GM never really solved their poor casting issues, the 6.5s castings were as hit and miss as the 6.2s. Red block 6.2 (82-83) and 599 block 6.2s are about the closest thing to crack free. I think 599 6.5s may be good too, but their bored out a bit more.

Good luck. I'll post a build thread when I actually have 'building' started.
'78 Waggy: 401/QT pulling the rust down the road. 6.2L +turbo waiting in the wings.

prairiejeeper
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by prairiejeeper »

Don't get so down on your budget Trenchfoot. If you went 6.0L the same epiphany would have arose. It all stems from seeing so many used motors for under a grand. After that they all need a rebuild of some sort and all the electrical costs, and a few thousand dollars later everyone scratches their head curious how it snowballed so far. Those rose coloured glasses get everyone it seems.
I only lean towards the 6.2 or 6.5 because of the ease of maintenance and install. The simple wiring leaves less room for error and less tuning, so if you aren't electrically inclined you may look at the simplicity of the diesel to be the perk.
The costs for each are within a few hundred bucks of each other, give or take. It depends on your resources at hand as to how you can save money or lose money. If you have a lot of 6.2/6.5 donors around it will be a good investment, if your area as more vortecs go that way.
The local salvage yards are where you save money, look into what they have for parts donors and you will find your budget will lean to what they have the most of.
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TrenchFoot
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by TrenchFoot »

Yeah, 'rose coloured glasses" for sure. 6.2s are hard to find around Seattle so I had to ignore the main advice on the internet: buy a running truck as your donor. I'm glad I got the engine I have, but not having a donor truck has made the little things add up.

And it's hard to avoid the costs associated with updating everything I touch. The "while I'm at it" mentality aint cheap. You get piece-of-mind out of updating everything, but costs go up.
'78 Waggy: 401/QT pulling the rust down the road. 6.2L +turbo waiting in the wings.
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Cataldo
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Cataldo »

Well over the past weekend I wound up picking up a 5.3 for $180. So far it looks like a re ring and bearings and the bottom end will be done, along with a cam swap.

I still really like the idea of a Diesel Jeep, but that will probably wait for a J-Truck or something.
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare

prairiejeeper
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by prairiejeeper »

I want a $180 motor, what a steal.
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TrenchFoot
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by TrenchFoot »

Cataldo wrote:Well over the past weekend I wound up picking up a 5.3 for $180.
What tranny you gonna use with that QT? And nice shopping, I'd take a $180 LS any day.
'78 Waggy: 401/QT pulling the rust down the road. 6.2L +turbo waiting in the wings.
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Cataldo
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by Cataldo »

Yeah, to say the least it swayed me to the LS dark side.

I have a 700r4 with a QT adapter ready just sitting on the floor. That is the next project, hopefully over spring break.
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare
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ThunderWagon
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Re: Thinking about 6.5 Turbo Diesel Swap

Post by ThunderWagon »

Lol, apparently my auto-login stopped working so I didn't get notifications on the thread until now. Sweet score on the 5.3, definitely be tempted if I found a deal like that.

I passed on a ~$1,750 complete, non-running, 4x4 5-speed 6.5 truck in the fall on the advice of the wife, still wondering if that would have been a good one. Pretty sure all it needed was a new/upgraded PMD. Oh well.
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig
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