65 Waggy 4bt swap

For everything related to converting and up keeping diesel engines in an FSJ
Adventure_Wagon88
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:00 pm
Location: Leesport, PA
Contact:

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby Adventure_Wagon88 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:08 am

A 1 ton diesel build is not cheap! I’m not trying to speak for Pablo here, but I am doing a very similar build myself and I easily have 10k into mine. I’ve wheeled and dealed a lot along the way to pay for that, but including the $2500 purchase price of the Wagoneer I expect to have close to $17-19k in mine by the time I am pretty well finished. 1 ton drive train is the only way to do a heavy duty diesel swap in a Jeep IMO. I know I didn’t want to be breaking axles and transfer cases and such. Plenty of guys get away with a quick 4BT swap into trucks by mating to the original transmission and leaving everything down stream stock or mostly stock with some upgrades. I didn’t want to have to baby it or have in the back of my mind that a big bump or rough drop off a rock ledge on the trail could mean a snapped axle housing. For me diesel equates to reliability and simplicity and that’s completely negated if the motor is the only strong and reliable component in the drivetrain!

User avatar
TheRebel
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:20 am

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby TheRebel » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:20 am

Adventure_Wagon88 wrote:A 1 ton diesel build is not cheap! I’m not trying to speak for Pablo here, but I am doing a very similar build myself and I easily have 10k into mine. I’ve wheeled and dealed a lot along the way to pay for that, but including the $2500 purchase price of the Wagoneer I expect to have close to $17-19k in mine by the time I am pretty well finished. 1 ton drive train is the only way to do a heavy duty diesel swap in a Jeep IMO. I know I didn’t want to be breaking axles and transfer cases and such. Plenty of guys get away with a quick 4BT swap into trucks by mating to the original transmission and leaving everything down stream stock or mostly stock with some upgrades. I didn’t want to have to baby it or have in the back of my mind that a big bump or rough drop off a rock ledge on the trail could mean a snapped axle housing. For me diesel equates to reliability and simplicity and that’s completely negated if the motor is the only strong and reliable component in the drivetrain!

Thanks. I already have a complete (for now) 1954 Willys Truck, a daily driver that must not be named, and a 66 Gladiator. I guess I’ll plan on stretching this project out over a few years, because the end goal is to have my final daily driver/tow rig be the gladiator. Just trying to decide between the 4bt and 6bt. I know the 4bt doesn’t need as much fabrication as the 6bt, but I’m drawn to the tow cap of the 6bt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
jaber
Vendor
Posts: 2982
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:24 pm
Location: Chino Valley, Az.

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby jaber » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:42 pm

TheRebel wrote:
Adventure_Wagon88 wrote:A 1 ton diesel build is not cheap! I’m not trying to speak for Pablo here, but I am doing a very similar build myself and I easily have 10k into mine. I’ve wheeled and dealed a lot along the way to pay for that, but including the $2500 purchase price of the Wagoneer I expect to have close to $17-19k in mine by the time I am pretty well finished. 1 ton drive train is the only way to do a heavy duty diesel swap in a Jeep IMO. I know I didn’t want to be breaking axles and transfer cases and such. Plenty of guys get away with a quick 4BT swap into trucks by mating to the original transmission and leaving everything down stream stock or mostly stock with some upgrades. I didn’t want to have to baby it or have in the back of my mind that a big bump or rough drop off a rock ledge on the trail could mean a snapped axle housing. For me diesel equates to reliability and simplicity and that’s completely negated if the motor is the only strong and reliable component in the drivetrain!

Thanks. I already have a complete (for now) 1954 Willys Truck, a daily driver that must not be named, and a 66 Gladiator. I guess I’ll plan on stretching this project out over a few years, because the end goal is to have my final daily driver/tow rig be the gladiator. Just trying to decide between the 4bt and 6bt. I know the 4bt doesn’t need as much fabrication as the 6bt, but I’m drawn to the tow cap of the 6bt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


viewtopic.php?f=15&t=224&start=40
If towing, I vote for the 6...
Jeff

'46 cj3a
'51 Willys p/u
'51 Willys Parkway Conversion
'74 CJ5
'75 J-20 Wrecker
'75 J-20 Cummins service truck
'77 J-10 p/u
'79 Cherokee
'88 Grand Wagoneer
http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh14/jeffaber/

User avatar
TheRebel
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:20 am

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby TheRebel » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:22 pm

jaber wrote:
TheRebel wrote:
Adventure_Wagon88 wrote:A 1 ton diesel build is not cheap! I’m not trying to speak for Pablo here, but I am doing a very similar build myself and I easily have 10k into mine. I’ve wheeled and dealed a lot along the way to pay for that, but including the $2500 purchase price of the Wagoneer I expect to have close to $17-19k in mine by the time I am pretty well finished. 1 ton drive train is the only way to do a heavy duty diesel swap in a Jeep IMO. I know I didn’t want to be breaking axles and transfer cases and such. Plenty of guys get away with a quick 4BT swap into trucks by mating to the original transmission and leaving everything down stream stock or mostly stock with some upgrades. I didn’t want to have to baby it or have in the back of my mind that a big bump or rough drop off a rock ledge on the trail could mean a snapped axle housing. For me diesel equates to reliability and simplicity and that’s completely negated if the motor is the only strong and reliable component in the drivetrain!

Thanks. I already have a complete (for now) 1954 Willys Truck, a daily driver that must not be named, and a 66 Gladiator. I guess I’ll plan on stretching this project out over a few years, because the end goal is to have my final daily driver/tow rig be the gladiator. Just trying to decide between the 4bt and 6bt. I know the 4bt doesn’t need as much fabrication as the 6bt, but I’m drawn to the tow cap of the 6bt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


viewtopic.php?f=15&t=224&start=40
If towing, I vote for the 6...

How had I not seen your thread before?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Adventure_Wagon88
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:00 pm
Location: Leesport, PA
Contact:

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby Adventure_Wagon88 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:45 pm

Not sure, it’s even in the build threads section!

User avatar
Pablo
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:58 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby Pablo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:13 pm

TheRebel wrote:I think your build is inspiring me to go the same direction with my build. How much do you think you have into the new drivetrain so far? I’m only asking because I’m 20 and want to set realistic goals for myself haha.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think Adventure gave some good advice. I will save you all from reading this giant wall of text: Unless you have lots of help and or money and skills, I would just do a small resto/rebuild with a Vortec... many of these diesel builds start, very few finish.

Much of the cost depends on how much time you have to look for stuff and how much you can do yourself. If you have all day to horsetrade on Craigslist and eBay you can get things for less, but either way you are looking at some coin. The little things will KILL you. Remember that and buy in bulk. Buy a whole vehicle instead of an engine, etc. You can always horse-trade parts if you have ones to trade. I either have time or money, but never both-- so the build kinda reflects whichever I had at the time I made a purchase decision. Your's will reflect your realities and they will not be the same, no two are.

Investigate legalities in your neck of the woods. I would not have paid what I did for the '67 had I known what I know about diesel laws. I got the '65 for less anyway and have EPA exemption since it is older than '66. Understand there is NO WAY this build is going to happen (properly) cheaper than a junkyard Vortec swap. It is going to be much more expensive.

As Adventure said, if you go the diesel route, you are looking at acquiring a full drive-line and axles:

1. Engine ($2700, $500ish for the better high-altitude turbo, $500-600 for various things: KDP, pop testing, advance timing, 4000 RPM valve springs, flipping the oil intake and pan, etc). If you go the 4bt route you will realistically need an overhaul on a used motor. I got lucky, only 75000 on the truck. Keep in mind I still need a new AC/alternator bracket, AC system, and am still having the mechanic modify an exhaust manifold to work with the new turbo. So I am not done yet... Oh, the radiator was $300. The old stock inner cooler is being reused. I still need an alternator as 85 amps is not gonna cut it in the long run, that is more money. The steering pump and motor are installed from a used Ford for a few hundred in parts, a hydroboost brake unit needs to be acquired still, etc.

2. Transmission: I went with a 5-ZF 4x4 manual. Got lucky here and found a totally new ZF5 warranty trans from an old Ford dealer.I think I am in that for 2000 altogether, and that is probably a steal for basically a brand-new trans. Still need a master clutch cylinder.

3. Transfercase: I went heavy and overbuild here, $900 for the 203 rebuilt by ORD. You can rebuild one yourself for much less, but need to have the time to horse trade for one and then rebuild it. I bought the ORD magnum doubler for it. Not sure what that costs nowdays, but it ain't cheap... a $1000 if I remember. You can look it up on Off Road Designs's site.

4. Front Axle: Got a Ford Dana 60 off a 78-79 Snowfighter/F350. It was $1350 and I had to ship it. Then I had it rebuilt, trimmed, and ARM locker, cro-mo's and the goodies installed. I think that was another 1600.

5. Rear Axle. Got taken for a ride on a Chevy 14bolt that was off a van. Ate the cost of that, don't remember what it was. Got a better deal with the Jeep shop on a 14bolt of the correct size that had factory disk brakes for $450ish. Don't think they call them 14-bolts anymore, but that is what it is. Trimmed its rear too, locked it and put the goodies in it. Probably 1600 altogether.

6. Wheels. Got a deal on blem wheels that had some scratches. They would have had scratches anyway if I took them offroad. They were not cheap and I don't remember what I have into them, but it is not insignificant. Still need lug-nuts and good ones are not cheap: 5 wheels will probably be $360 for the good McGuards... these little things will kill you. $400 here, $300 there... you can have 10k just in that kinda stuff, realistically.

6. Beefing frame: Have not finished this yet. Got a drop cradle and plans for a bolt on brace under the motor in front. Then I am looking to roll cage into the frame. I have been toying with the idea of a partial exo-skeleton for simplicity in design (looks like a roof rack and the a-pillars will be easier to deal with), but I hate exo's. I am using the cage for the majority of my frame strengthening and just adding some bracing in the middle and rear. I have no idea what the final cost will be, but it is certainly lower if you can do quality weld work yourself. To clear your motor you might need a possible body lift, a drop cradle, or both. More little $$$$ outlays.

7. Fuel tank mods. You want that diesel pump to fit and pump right? Going to need to cut the stock tube out. Will need a high flow through lift pump for piece of mind and a tank it can go in. Lots of little things like this. More cash $$$.

The cheapest approach is to buy a truck and swap everything in. This is a smart way to go, except for one thing-- the 6bt and larger diesel truck engines are really too much for this thing to wheel with. You can do it, but you have a front heavy high center of gravity vehicle. It is great for towing, or burning rubber on the road-- not so great when it flops over on its side on the first substantial trail obstacle.

The smaller diesel's are more cash and harder to find. The Cummin's 2.8 and larger crate motors are crazy expensive, but if money was no object-- I would have bought one. Don't buy anything made by Vitto Mitori (Fix It Again Tony / Dodge CRD diesels). They are a crap sandwich. Owned one, not recommended for anything but a boat anchor. Also, the Chevy 6.x old motors are dog slow and underpowered unless you build them with a better turbo, still not a great choice in my opinion. Go with the big C, the Duramax/Isuzu, a bullet-proofed Powerstroke, a MB engine-- or really--- just put a gasser in it and be done with it.

When the mechanicals are in I am going to drive it awhile, then start a frame-off resto-mod and put the roll-cage in and the rest of the mods (insulation, interior, radio stack, MRAP seats, etc). I will have a ton of cash into it, but there will be nothing like it and time will tell if that is a good thing or not. I am betting it will be, as I am getting exactly what I want.

User avatar
Pablo
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:58 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby Pablo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:22 pm

Pablo wrote:
TheRebel wrote:I think your build is inspiring me to go the same direction with my build. How much do you think you have into the new drivetrain so far? I’m only asking because I’m 20 and want to set realistic goals for myself haha.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think Adventure gave some good advice. I will save you all from reading this giant wall of text: Unless you have lots of help and or money and skills, I would just do a small resto/rebuild with a Vortec... many of these diesel builds start, very few finish.

Much of the cost depends on how much time you have to look for stuff and how much you can do yourself. If you have all day to horsetrade on Craigslist and eBay you can get things for less, but either way you are looking at some coin. The little things will KILL you. Remember that and buy in bulk. Buy a whole vehicle instead of an engine, etc. You can always horse-trade parts if you have ones to trade. I either have time or money, but never both-- so the build kinda reflects whichever I had at the time I made a purchase decision. Your's will reflect your realities and they will not be the same, no two are.

Investigate legalities in your neck of the woods. I would not have paid what I did for the '67 had I known what I know about diesel laws. I got the '65 for less anyway and have EPA exemption since it is older than '66. Understand there is NO WAY this build is going to happen (properly) cheaper than a junkyard Vortec swap. It is going to be much more expensive.

As Adventure said, if you go the diesel route, you are looking at acquiring a full drive-line and axles:

1. Engine ($2700, $500ish for the better high-altitude turbo, $500-600 for various things: KDP, pop testing, advance timing, 4000 RPM valve springs, flipping the oil intake and pan, etc). If you go the 4bt route you will realistically need an overhaul on a used motor. I got lucky, only 75000 on the truck. Keep in mind I still need a new AC/alternator bracket, AC system, and am still having the mechanic modify an exhaust manifold to work with the new turbo. So I am not done yet... Oh, the radiator was $300. The old stock inner cooler is being reused. I still need an alternator as 85 amps is not gonna cut it in the long run, that is more money. The steering pump and motor are installed from a used Ford for a few hundred in parts, a hydroboost brake unit needs to be acquired still, etc.

2. Transmission: I went with a 5-ZF 4x4 manual. Got lucky here and found a totally new ZF5 warranty trans from an old Ford dealer.I think I am in that for 2000 altogether, and that is probably a steal for basically a brand-new trans. Still need a master clutch cylinder.

3. Transfercase: I went heavy and overbuild here, $900 for the 203 rebuilt by ORD. You can rebuild one yourself for much less, but need to have the time to horse trade for one and then rebuild it. I bought the ORD magnum doubler for it. Not sure what that costs nowdays, but it ain't cheap... a $1000 if I remember. You can look it up on Off Road Designs's site.

4. Front Axle: Got a Ford Dana 60 off a 78-79 Snowfighter/F350. It was $1350 and I had to ship it. Then I had it rebuilt, trimmed, and ARB locker, cro-mo's and the goodies installed. I think that was another 1600.

5. Rear Axle. Got taken for a ride on a Chevy 14bolt that was off a van. Ate the cost of that, don't remember what it was. Got a better deal with the Jeep shop on a 14bolt of the correct size that had factory disk brakes for $450ish. Don't think they call them 14-bolts anymore, but that is what it is. Trimmed its rear too, locked it and put the goodies in it. Probably 1600 altogether.

6. Wheels. New axles means new wheels more than likely as 1-tons are gonna have a different bolt pattern. Got a deal on blem wheels that had some scratches. They would have had scratches anyway if I took them offroad. They were not cheap and I don't remember what I have into them, but it is not insignificant. Still need lug-nuts and good ones are not cheap: 5 wheels will probably be $360 for the good McGuards... these little things will kill you. $400 here, $300 there... you can have 10k just in that kinda stuff, realistically.

7. Beefing frame: Have not finished this yet. Got a drop cradle and plans for a bolt on brace under the motor in front. Then I am looking to roll cage into the frame. I have been toying with the idea of a partial exo-skeleton for simplicity in design (looks like a roof rack and the a-pillars will be easier to deal with), but I hate exo's. I am using the cage for the majority of my frame strengthening and just adding some bracing in the middle and rear. I have no idea what the final cost will be, but it is certainly lower if you can do quality weld work yourself. To clear your motor you might need a possible body lift, a drop cradle, or both. More little $$$$ outlays.

8. Fuel tank mods. You want that diesel pump to fit and pump right? Going to need to cut the stock tube out. Will need a high flow through lift pump for piece of mind and a tank it can go in. Lots of little things like this. More cash $$$.

The cheapest approach is to buy a truck and swap everything in. This is a smart way to go, except for one thing-- the 6bt and larger diesel truck engines are really too much for this thing to wheel with. You can do it, but you have a front heavy high center of gravity vehicle. It is great for towing, or burning rubber on the road-- not so great when it flops over on its side on the first substantial trail obstacle.

The smaller diesel's are more cash and harder to find. The Cummin's 2.8 and larger crate motors are crazy expensive, but if money was no object-- I would have bought one. Don't buy anything made by Vitto Mitori (Fix It Again Tony / Dodge CRD diesels). They are a crap sandwich. Owned one, not recommended for anything but a boat anchor. Also, the Chevy 6.x old motors are dog slow and underpowered unless you build them with a better turbo, still not a great choice in my opinion. Go with the big C, the Duramax/Isuzu, a bullet-proofed Powerstroke, a MB engine-- or really--- just put a gasser in it and be done with it.

When the mechanicals are in I am going to drive it awhile, then start a frame-off resto-mod and put the roll-cage in and the rest of the mods (insulation, interior, radio stack, MRAP seats, etc). I will have a ton of cash into it, but there will be nothing like it and time will tell if that is a good thing or not. I am betting it will be, as I am getting exactly what I want.

Adventure_Wagon88
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:00 pm
Location: Leesport, PA
Contact:

65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby Adventure_Wagon88 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:37 pm

Well said my friend! My name is Jon by the way. There are days I wish I had just pooped a LS in mine for sure. You’re spot on about the horse trading and also the little things just adding up. I just bought another $1000 part and estimate I need at least another $2500 in misc just to get the beast moving under his own power. The wall of items (time and $$$) needed beyond that is honestly quite discouraging, but I will muddle through! I absolutely refuse to be one of those diesel projects that started and never finished, or almost worse, that ends up with the last 2/3’s slapped together so I can enjoy it for a few minutes before making it someone else’s problem!

I concur, turbo upgrade for mine was $550. I got my motor for $1400 after some horse trading, and the adapter and flywheel was another $1400. I have $300 in my transmission not including clutch, but it remains to be seen whether the trans will need a rebuild. I’ve got another $1500 in axles, both of which will need lockers and at least one will need re-gearing (they’re not matched). Even once I get past “the wall” of stuff to get it driving legally, there’s still AC, upholstery and carpet, paint, and a bunch of things I don’t even realize that will be needed to make it nice. It’s entirely a labor of love and I fully expect to love it and drive it for as long as I can heft my ass up into the driver seat.
Last edited by Adventure_Wagon88 on Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TheRebel
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:20 am

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby TheRebel » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:39 pm

You guys have been very helpful. Since this will be my first “built” truck, I think I’ll go the LS route.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Adventure_Wagon88
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:00 pm
Location: Leesport, PA
Contact:

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby Adventure_Wagon88 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:43 pm

TheRebel wrote:You guys have been very helpful. Since this will be my first “built” truck, I think I’ll go the LS route.


Happy to help but somewhat sad to have been the voice of reason on this one. You can always swap again or build another as well after you’ve gained some experience. I’d actually really like my next Wagoneer to have a decent enough 360 or 401 that I could just put a fuel injection kit on it and drive it pretty much stock, I think that would be fantastic. If the motor needed to be replaced and I felt like more of a project, an LS powered one would be a slick ride too for sure.

User avatar
TheRebel
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:20 am

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby TheRebel » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:45 pm

Too true. I’m young though and easily get stars in my eyes haha. Good to have people who will inject a dose of reality into my imagination.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
jaber
Vendor
Posts: 2982
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:24 pm
Location: Chino Valley, Az.

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby jaber » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:46 am

Well said guys. I feel I got VERY lucky when I found mine (250k for $3500), and my business runs out of my truck so I had lots of drive to finish it.
I have done the TBI on a fresh 360, it ran awesome for many years. I do believe it ate a cam lobe and has a very strong miss and has been parked for a couple of years now. I think that wagoneer will get an LS type swap next. Hope I can find another deal on a computer donor...
Jeff

'46 cj3a
'51 Willys p/u
'51 Willys Parkway Conversion
'74 CJ5
'75 J-20 Wrecker
'75 J-20 Cummins service truck
'77 J-10 p/u
'79 Cherokee
'88 Grand Wagoneer
http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh14/jeffaber/

230ohc
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:27 am
Location: Northern California

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby 230ohc » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:38 pm

How is this 4bt working out?
1964 willys wagoneer
Om617 turbo diesel
T18 granny
Dana 20
3.73 dana 27 front
3.73 dana 44 rear

User avatar
Pablo
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:58 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: 65 Waggy 4bt swap

Postby Pablo » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:19 pm

Well, the project progresses at the pace of a snail. Mainly because I either have time or money... but not both. I will bug the wrench turner and see where we are at (almost hate to know what I owe, but want to get it running).


Return to “FSJ Diesel Conversions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest