EFI with spark control

[J.Bradley]

This system seems to have everything covered, I would like some experienced eyes look over it in case I am overlooking the obvious.

http://professional-products.com/secure ... ions_F.pdf

[tgreese]

What appeals to you about this product? Do you have a 4V manifold now? You don't really need 4 barrels with fuel injection. There is no technical advantage to 4 vs 2 with fuel injection.

Here's their patent - https://www.google.com/patents/US7735475 It's for a throttle body that looks like a carburetor. Technically it's the same as the OEM systems except for appearance, as far as I can tell.

[J.Bradley]

The 360 I am building will have an aluminum 4v just for the weight after pulling the stock anchor off of it. I am not set on any one of them, This one just seemed it would be the most user friendly for adjusting and if it is done I would want spark control not just an electric carb. I have no experience with any of them. I could easily assemble the DYI TBI hardware but I have never dealt with the programming side of it. I need something "wife" friendly for the cold starts and in a hurry accompanied with it. I am not looking for any mileage/performance improvement just start and go.

[tgreese]

Another issue with a product like this - you end up captured by the manufacturer. Replacement parts like the injectors and sensors are likely repackaged OEM parts, but they will want you to buy those spares or replacements from them. Typically they will not tell you the OEM part numbers for the components they use.

Parts for GM TBI, for example, can be had at neighborhood parts stores nation-wide. As long as you know the original application, replacements and spares are easy and cheap.

[tgreese]

The 360 I am building will have an aluminum 4v just for the weight after pulling the stock anchor off of it. I am not set on any one of them, This one just seemed it would be the most user friendly for adjusting and if it is done I would want spark control not just an electric carb. I have no experience with any of them. I could easily assemble the DYI TBI hardware but I have never dealt with the programming side of it. I need something "wife" friendly for the cold starts and in a hurry accompanied with it. I am not looking for any mileage/performance improvement just start and go.

Have you contacted Bill? (bill-usn1 IIRC) http://hamiltonfuelinjection.com/ He posts on here often, and could easily handle that aspect of the installation for you.

[J.Bradley]

Yes , He has given me links to many of the post on binderplanet and the has helped with starting to understand the systems. I liked the end user programming aspect of it for as I learn more I can make the adjustments.

[AwesomeJ10]

I recommend buying one of Bill's systems or building your own with his (and our) assistance.

[FSJ Guy]

If you're going to pay that kind of money, get a system from Howell or AFI (they can add timing control for you). They are turnkey systems that don't require chip burning or mailing chips back and forth. But since they are based on and USE actual GM parts, you can get replacements just about anywhere and later on, if you're so inclined, you can do programming on your own and even add timing control to the Howell system.

[tgreese]

As I understand you, you want to be able to do your own tuning without learning to program the chip in assembly language.

Maybe you could look into the fancier programmers for the GM ECUs. I'm sure there must be some demand for the interactive and learning-mode programming that comes with this product. Then you would not be forced to be either entirely hands off, or learn the minute detail of every line of code in the ECU. Not sure what that would be ... I would start by looking at the Moates products, and maybe others will have suggestions.

[J.Bradley]

I am not saying I would not learn the programming just that I have not done any programming with that aspect before. They have refurb systems for $1000 which is in the range with others. All of there components are GM from IAC to the injectors, The computer is their own configuration.

[J.Bradley]

Found this comparison on another forum

[FSJ Guy]

You can do that kind of tuning with a "standard" GM system and TunerPro. No hex code required, unless you WANT to learn it and play around.

It might be a fine system. I don't know. But the GM ECMs and PCMs have plenty of support and there are probably people more knowledgable about those systems than this proprietary system. FWIW, this sort of looks like the Embedded Lockers ECM available at www.dynamicefi.com. But the Dymanic EFI system uses a stock GM controller with a custom daughter board and TONS of forum and manufacturer support.

I'm not overly impressed, but I am partial to the factory GM systems. <shrug>

[J.Bradley]

I agree 100% on the GM R&D with TBI. That is more than likely where I will end up. That is why I asked for it to be looked over. I would much rather go with a system that is FSJ approved on here than a sales flyer.

So the wiring and labor is not a problem on my end. What is the ball park estimate if I were to pickup all the items needed from salvage yard/parts store and then have the ECM chip programmed or buy the software to reprogram myself Vs. buying a $1000-$1400 plug-n-play. I know I would be paying for the convenience of parts and experience of others with a purchased system but what is the differential. Is it $400 worth of parts and $1000 labor?

[Bill usn-1]

If you're going to pay that kind of money, get a system from Howell or AFI (they can add timing control for you). They are turnkey systems that don't require chip burning or mailing chips back and forth.

This is not really an accurate statement.
The Howell and AFI systems are GM based systems just like mine.
The howell system is a fuel only system and the AFI has actually used some of my R&D for their systems.
Being they are all GM based it comes down to the tune and the service after the sale.
To say that those 2 do not require tuning but imply that somehow mine would is incorrect.
The GM system is a self correcting system so the longer you drive it the more it adjust to correct for a bad tune.

The other companies simply tell you to keep driving it till it learns. Does that mean theirs doesn't require tuning? NO It means they choose not to.

I take it a step further.
I include a base tune for your engine(like them) in the kit and it will start and run as good if not better then the others.
But I also include the data logging cable and diagnostic software(do they?) to allow you to drive and log data with your vehicle where you live.
Then email me the data and I will make any needed adjustments to the base line tune so the ECM does not need to adjust.
This does not mean the engine will run different.
This tune allows the system the largest amount of adjustability so it can be driven anywhere at any altitude and still be able to correct.
If their system is already maxed out on corrections then there is nothing left when you start to change altitude.

This is what separates my system and my service from the others.
Not to mention that I have been helping guys like you Ethan for over 15yrs with their junkyard conversions.
So if you want to compare systems then do so with all the facts and hopefully a little better understanding of how the TBI system works.
I have tried to explain Turn key to you before, If there is something you still aren't clear on how the system works, please ask.

If you want to see what I mean just log some data from one of their systems and see how close the "tune" really is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FSJ Guy]

If you're going to pay that kind of money, get a system from Howell or AFI (they can add timing control for you). They are turnkey systems that don't require chip burning or mailing chips back and forth. But since they are based on and USE actual GM parts, you can get replacements just about anywhere and later on, if you're so inclined, you can do programming on your own and even add timing control to the Howell system.

Bill, if you're going to quote me, at least quote the whole post. :- p

I'm not sure what part of this post implies that your specific system requires tuning. If you read carefully, you will notice that no where did I even mention YOUR system. You brought it up. Sorry if you felt "attacked".

And since you brought it up...

The fact is that Howell and AFI systems DO NOT REQUIRE you to mail a chip back and forth. SURE, you COULD do that. But it is not required.

And to state that AFI "stole" your specific information is silly. It's freely posted on your website and the Binder Planet forum. You never properly attached any sort of licensing restrictions to it (that I'm aware of) and nor did you give it a "Beerware" license. But you set it free on the internet. How could you possibly think that someone wouldn't use it for profit? And I hope you're sitting down when you read this, but you're not the only source of this type of information.

One last thing: Turnkey: You install the system, turn the key on and it works out of the box. I think most folks would agree with that definition. I bought a Howell EFI system once and I bolted it on (OK, my mechanic also welded the O2 sensor for me...) and when I turned it on, it worked. I was able to drive it out of my garage and go 4 wheeling immediately. Which I did.

You can argue semantics and object to my apparent "definitions" all day long, but in the end, I think you just end up looking like an unofficial vendor desperately trying to make a sale.

Back ON TOPIC:

Buying junkyard parts depends on your source. If you have a pick n pull, you can get the throttle body and injectors pretty cheap. The biggest thing to get would be the throttle body and wiring harness. And the ECM, of course. You can use the junkyard TPS, MAP and IAC. I recommend buying a NEW temp sender (it's cheap enough) and O2 sensor. Even the heated 4 wire sensors are less than $50 now.

The TPS and MAP sensors are usually "good" or "not good", so I don't mind using used parts for them. The IAC can get carbon buildup, so look for a cleaner one, or plunk down the $40 or so for a new one.

Used injector history is often unknown. If you're picky (or paranoid. LOL!) you can get new ones for about $60-$70 EACH, IIRC.

DEFINITELY get the throttle body used. New or refurbished ones are available on eBay, but they're usually $250-$300 or more. Silly, when you can get one from a boneyard for under $50, including used injectors.

A TBI rebuild kit can be had for around $30. That gets you new gaskets and O rings for the injectors, pod and fuel pressure regulator.

You can tune the various GM ECM yourself with hardware from ww.Moates.net. You get get all fancy with their AutoProm which offers real time emulation. Or you can just get a data logging cable and the Burn2 (for, wait for it.... burning chips) instead. The particular ECM you use will determine what adapter and EEPROM chip you will want to purchase. All that information is on Moates' website. Another good place for ECM (and hacking) information is www.gearhead-efi.com.

[FSJ Guy]

Oops. Hit Submit too soon:

AutoProm is just a little over $300, vs Burn2 and cable for <$200. You can build your own cable for less, but you'll need to know what your'e doing and in the end, you'll still just have a serial (DB9 style) cable. IMHO, it's worth it to buy a USB cable vs. going through an adapter. But if you're handing with electronics, it can be done for cheaper.

So, are you going to save tons of cash going the DIY route on your own? Unfortunately, the answer is: It depends. :- /

You CAN save a boatload of money. I think if you're frugal and cruise the boneyards, you can get into it for under $500 (including the cost of chip programmer and adapters). But sometimes the little things will end up adding up and eating into that saving, so be careful! :- )

But, that said, when you're done, you have a GM system that YOU programmed yourself and when you know how the system works and how to adjust it, you will enjoy it all that much more.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the price of a fuel pump! External pumps run from $100 (in store local purchase) to $30 (eBay).

[J.Bradley]

Wow!

Thanks for the info so far. So if best case scenario is $500+/- I think my best option would be a kit from this point. I do not have more Money than time but I do not have any time either.

Performance Fuel Injection Systems $1000
Affordable fuel injection $1035
Remanufactured Powerjection III $1100
Howell Fuel Injection $1300
Hamiliton Fuel Injection $1400

I just found the Performance Fuel Injection, It says he founded AFI? http://pfisys.com/about/
It looks like the kit comes with a new small cap dizzy also.

[FSJ Guy]

The PFI system looks like a good deal. You might want to check and see if they include timing control, since they send you a distributor to use.

[J.Bradley]

I will call and verify but I watched their stock video and it shows/says vacuum advance is removed and distributor is wired into the harness. No exact mention of timing control but he sets the timing in the video and has to unplug the timing set wire for the ecm.

[FSJ Guy]

I will call and verify but I watched their stock video and it shows/says vacuum advance is removed and distributor is wired into the harness. No exact mention of timing control but he sets the timing in the video and has to unplug the timing set wire for the ecm.

That sounds like timing control to me, but again, I'd check to make sure.