Howell TBI Setup

[Dr. Marneaus]

Hi.

I'm starting to really consider a TBI setup. I havce realized more and more that electric stuff really isnt evil. I go on and on in my head about how all my old crap is easier and more reliable, then I realize I'm afraid to drive my truck on long trips because something always goes wrong, or on off-camber trails, or on steep hills, or in hot weather, blah blah blah.

Plans are to stick with a stock type engine as long as I have an AMC motor in there. Motor is currently stock, maybe 170,000 miles on it.

2 notes:

- It's a 1987 engine with 1987 ignition components/dizzy/etc.

- It's running a 1973 4bbl intake manifold, and has no emissions related crap (EGR is deleted, no catalytic converter, smog pump and tubes are all gone, and there are no CTO's and hardly any vacuum lines). The only vapor recovery system is the 2 port can from 1973. It has 1 port in from the gas tank check valve, and 1 port that goes out to a vacuum source (snorkel).

I read through the installation instructions on the Howell stuff, and it mentions a few times "if your vehicle is equipped" in regard to emissions stuff, and it also discusses needing a fully functional vapor recovery system and a cat (if originally equipped with one) if you want it to be emissions legal.

My question is regardless of being emissions legal, will it run and work correctly without that junk? The cat shouldn't matter as the O2 sensor goes in front of it anyway, but what about the EGR valve and the CTO's that it connects to, as well as the vapor recovery system? I'm not sure if running a later style ignition without all the later style emissions stuff will be a problem.

Another question is whether I order an emissions legal kit or an offroad only kit? My truck is smog exempt as long as i keep it under 5000 miles a year where I live currently, and it likely would be smog exempt many other places due to age.

I guess the bottom line is seeing as I'm missing the EGR and CTO's will I still be able to bolt the kit on and have it run as necessary?

[Stuka]

For the TBI setups, they do not use a post-cat O2 sensor. Newer systems do (My JK has four O2 sensors for instance). So a cat will not be required.

But really, the ONLY reason to go with the Howell setup is for smog compliance. Here in CA your Waggy would be smog exempt. If you do not plan on driving more than 5K per year there, skip paying the money for a Howell system and do a junk yard TBI swap. The Howell system uses a GM TB as its base.

As for EGR, there is no performance degradation from using it (in our application), and it can increase fuel economy. But I am not sure if it is required, since the ECU is not operating it in the case of a GM TBI as I recall. Its still vacuum controlled.

[Dr. Marneaus]

For the TBI setups, they do not use a post-cat O2 sensor. Newer systems do (My JK has four O2 sensors for instance). So a cat will not be required.

But really, the ONLY reason to go with the Howell setup is for smog compliance. Here in CA your Waggy would be smog exempt. If you do not plan on driving more than 5K per year there, skip paying the money for a Howell system and do a junk yard TBI swap. The Howell system uses a GM TB as its base.

As for EGR, there is no performance degradation from using it (in our application), and it can increase fuel economy. But I am not sure if it is required, since the ECU is not operating it in the case of a GM TBI as I recall. Its still vacuum controlled.

I considered junkyard build, but in all reality look who you're talking to haha. I cant even swap an axle or install a locker, think I'll be able to cobble together and wire a TBI setup?

If i decide to go this route I will want something thats bolt in, plug and play, and has support/warranty from a manufacturer....because I'll need it.

[Stuka]

For the TBI setups, they do not use a post-cat O2 sensor. Newer systems do (My JK has four O2 sensors for instance). So a cat will not be required.

But really, the ONLY reason to go with the Howell setup is for smog compliance. Here in CA your Waggy would be smog exempt. If you do not plan on driving more than 5K per year there, skip paying the money for a Howell system and do a junk yard TBI swap. The Howell system uses a GM TB as its base.

As for EGR, there is no performance degradation from using it (in our application), and it can increase fuel economy. But I am not sure if it is required, since the ECU is not operating it in the case of a GM TBI as I recall. Its still vacuum controlled.

I considered junkyard build, but in all reality look who you're talking to haha. I cant even swap an axle or install a locker, think I'll be able to cobble together and wire a TBI setup?

If i decide to go this route I will want something thats bolt in, plug and play, and has support/warranty from a manufacturer....because I'll need it.

In that case, I think the Howell is the way to go. Stay far away from Holley's ProJection setup, Edelbrocks TPI is awesome, but is way more money.

[Dr. Marneaus]

For the TBI setups, they do not use a post-cat O2 sensor. Newer systems do (My JK has four O2 sensors for instance). So a cat will not be required.

But really, the ONLY reason to go with the Howell setup is for smog compliance. Here in CA your Waggy would be smog exempt. If you do not plan on driving more than 5K per year there, skip paying the money for a Howell system and do a junk yard TBI swap. The Howell system uses a GM TB as its base.

As for EGR, there is no performance degradation from using it (in our application), and it can increase fuel economy. But I am not sure if it is required, since the ECU is not operating it in the case of a GM TBI as I recall. Its still vacuum controlled.

I considered junkyard build, but in all reality look who you're talking to haha. I cant even swap an axle or install a locker, think I'll be able to cobble together and wire a TBI setup?

If i decide to go this route I will want something thats bolt in, plug and play, and has support/warranty from a manufacturer....because I'll need it.

In that case, I think the Howell is the way to go. Stay far away from Holley's ProJection setup, Edelbrocks TPI is awesome, but is way more money.

I know $1200-$1500 is alot for the fuel injection vs being in maybe $500 or so for a junk yard swap, but I'm tired of screwing everything up and having to do it twice, and I would just have alot more faith in a new (well rebuilt in their case) system.

I have zero interest in tweaking and tuning it like I have seen other kits able to do, making chips and logging info blah blah blah. Just want something that'll increase reliability/Drivability both on and off the road. And in all reality if jeepy stays running well I'll be driving it alot more on tips and it's entirely likely that I may hit or surpass my 5000 per year mileage limit and may need to be smoggable.

I did see the less expensive Holley Pro-Jection systems but have done some reading on their limitations and problems.

[FSJ Guy]

Sounds like you want a turnkey system then. Howell makes an excellent kit. Since you're so close to CA, having a CA compliant TBI might be work it if you ever move or sell the truck. Something to think about....

[243]

Personally, I would not spend the money on the Howell system, simply because it does not control timing.

You can buy a pre-fabricated wiring harness although chopping a factory harness is not that hard.

You can shop for stuff on CL or Fleabay too, I just bought a complete system for 125.00 shipped off CL, the harness looks fantastic compared to many I have bought in the past.

I am not ready to tune, so I paid Bill Hamilton for a chip after logging data using the stock 4.3 chip, money well spent.

[jaber]

Bill from Binder Plant also makes turn key units. I used his write up to do mine. He knows our engines, and it comes with an HEI dizzy.

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/show ... p?t=102989

[Dr. Marneaus]

Bill from Binder Plant also makes turn key units. I used his write up to do mine. He knows our engines, and it comes with an HEI dizzy.

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/show ... p?t=102989

Hey thanks for the heads up. Seems like a good setup and price. I will do more reading but I like that, and I would rather support the smaller guy!

[243]

You will not be disappointed and you will appreciate the customer service, straight from the man who builds the system vs a tech guy that works for the company.

[rocklaurence]

I just installed one on my Cherokee Resto. After talking with Howell, I plugged the CTO and Evap lines and only run the CPV. I did have an issue with the pump relay that ended up being the splice in the harness but I was able to correct it quickly.

[Dr. Marneaus]

You will not be disappointed and you will appreciate the customer service, straight from the man who builds the system vs a tech guy that works for the company.

Yeah when it comes down to it I agree and would rather go that way if the price is the same. Plus it includes an HEI dizzy which is another upgrade

[FSJ Guy]

HEI is not really an upgrade, IMHO. You can get the same thing with a coil swap or even an inexpensive MSD Streetfire. And with those options you don't have to worry about swapping cam/distributor gears or worse, eating a cam/distributor gear and having to pull the timing cover off to replace them.

If you want timing control, AFI will sell you a turnkey kit to do it. Since you don't want to mess with programming and such, that is probably the best way. The Binder Planet guy will have you datalog and send chips back and forth to get a good tune. At that point, you are essentially programming and you might as well have gone with a DIY setup. <shrug>

Howell and AFI (Affordable Fuel Injection) are really your only true turnkey solutions.

[Stuka]

HEI is not really an upgrade, IMHO. You can get the same thing with a coil swap or even an inexpensive MSD Streetfire. And with those options you don't have to worry about swapping cam/distributor gears or worse, eating a cam/distributor gear and having to pull the timing cover off to replace them.

If you want timing control, AFI will sell you a turnkey kit to do it. Since you don't want to mess with programming and such, that is probably the best way. The Binder Planet guy will have you datalog and send chips back and forth to get a good tune. At that point, you are essentially programming and you might as well have gone with a DIY setup. <shrug>

Howell and AFI (Affordable Fuel Injection) are really your only true turnkey solutions.

I agree an HEi is more of a side grade for '78+ FSJ's. However a '73 is going to have points from the factory. HEI is a huge upgrade over points.

[babywag]

Both the AFI and Bill's system use a modified hybrid distributor.
Stock AMC(Duraspark) base, and GM small cap TBI on top.

It isn't like the aftermarket HEI distributors everyone sells.

Any of the systems will work, however tuning should be done anyway.
It'll run out of the box, but it'll run a whole bunch better if tuned to your engine.
AFI does datalog/chip mailing same as Bill's system.
Howell does it as well.

Look @ 78 Arizona Chief's thread…that was an out of the box AFI system.

[Bill usn-1]

I know it's the internet, but it would be nice if only people with facts would answer questions.

It's a shame when I see guys I spent weeks and months helping them learn all the basics of TBI injection. Some got it and some just think they did.

I would recommend if anyone wants the facts then simple call and ask the people that make the system.

I will say that lots of systems can be bolted on and run, but so can a junkyard system with the factory GM tune still in it.
But that doesn't make it right.

I definately provide a complete package with data logging cable and software because I want to make sure my system is tuned to every engine and location.
That's the way I do it.

Ask the other vendors what they provide.
If it doesn't run right, how do they correct the tune?

A base line chip for an engine at sea level is not the same as one at 5000' or 8000'. What if the system max's out correcting at 5000' and you want to drive to 14,000'. Your screwed. It will be just as bad as a carb.
The system is good enough that as you drive it will try to correct for the tune, but that doesn't make it right!
And it can only adjust about 10% from it's baseline.

Do your home work and don't think every thing you read on the web is the whole story or even the truth.

[FSJ Guy]

"Do your home work and don't think every thing you read on the web is the whole story or even the truth."

Oh, the irony....

[Bill usn-1]

I know Ethan, Check this quote out.
It was from a guy I spent months helping convert and tune his system that he bought from one of those other vendors you just recommended. Claims to of had some big scary jeep.
I have file after file plus emails and PMs still in a folder on my computer from him.
I think I also have a copy of his entire write up where he talked specifically about those other systems.

Pop over to http://www.binderplanet.com/forums and click on the Injection Tech page.

There’s a guy named Bill over there who has THE ABSOLUTE BEST writeups of how to install a GM based TBI system on your engine. ANY engine. It doesn’t have to be an International engine. It doesn’t even have to be an AMC engine.
That website showed me how I could use my EXISTING distributor along with some $35 GM parts to add computerized timing control to my truck.
AMC 360/401 owners actually have it easier, as we already HAVE the Duraspark distributor that the International folks are using (modified) to drive their ECMs.
So, on to the conversion!!!

The Injection forum on the Binder Planet website has a wealth of information RE GM TBI systems in general. It is one of my favorite stash of knowledge: BINDER PLANET

Read the FAQ stickies. Read them again. Re-read them again. Once you have a good understanding of what’s going on and how everything works, your conversion will go much better.

[AwesomeJ10]

The funny thing is that there are guys over on other sites who disagree with Bill's overall approach towards TBI. Gear head EFI is a good example.

I've personally found Bill's advice to pretty accurate and have been able to convert several rigs over to TBI using junkyard parts, Moates hardware and his site. I have all the stuff to 'tune' a GM TBI, but I'm usually too lazy and/or don't really care. The tune that I have works great and it's a mostly stock ASDU on an AMC 360. Hell I'll be using my J10 on tons and 42's to tow my 4000lbs camper next week 150 miles through the mountains, all on a 'bad' tune that works great for what I need. If I were running a stock carb, I'm sure it would vapor lock going over the passes.

[Stuka]

It is great to have you here Bill. I know anytime somebody has an EFI question you inevitably have the correct answer.

And I probably should have pointed out that you have turn key systems up top, I honestly just forgot :/

Which reminds me, we do have the vendor section here. If you want to list up your items you can, I just have to give you privs.


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