Hamilton FI, more effort

For everything related to using Fuel Injection in an FSJ.
Post Reply
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

So in an effort to take advantage of a nice weather day and with the hopes of making this FI work better, I’m trying again. Pulled out the 3 ring binder I made with Bill’s install instructions and am trying to find something that will make this run as it should. I know this is going to be something I did/am doing wrong but I need this Jeep to run.
First thing I noticed as I open the hood is a lot of blown oil from the fill breather. Not surprised but it’s nasty. Spent a few minutes cleaning. Pull the air filter and start looking around.
First thing I see is this odd, unconnected black wire that comes out of Bills electronic distributor loom. There are three wires, orange, purple, and black. The orange and purple go to the ignition module thingy. I don’t see or feel anywhere that the black wire may have been previously attached if it ever was.
Anyone know where it’s supposed to go?
Image

Next thing that appears may have been done wrong deals with vacuum. I had run the MAP sensor hose to the vac port on the back of the intake, between the egr and the tbi. According to bills instructions, that should have been run to either the port on the tbi at the rear between the fuel lines or the far left port on the front. I rerouted it and capped of the manifold. Not sure if that did anything but it kinda sounds different. *shrugs*
Anyone have any idea where that black wire goes, please let me know. I’m going around the block to see if the MAP change did anything...
And fwiw, the CEL is on...still.
Last edited by tedlovesjeeps71 on Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar

babywag
Posts: 1217
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Land of Fruit Loops & Coconuts

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by babywag »

Black is probably just a ground.

Whip out your paperclip and check to see what code(s) are stored.
Must have info. if you expect to resolve running problems.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

babywag wrote:Black is probably just a ground.

Whip out your paperclip and check to see what code(s) are stored.
Must have info. if you expect to resolve running problems.
My thought was ground but for what? Part of the dizzy internals?
The good news is that MAP rerouting seems to have help a lot. I took it for a ride and it definitely pulls better, not as rich smelling, and doesn’t have as many odd issues. It ain’t no 6.0 LS motor but it’s a big improvement. Monday work commute will tell me more.
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Oh, and it looks like the CEL is gone.
User avatar

toothofwar
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:38 am

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by toothofwar »

The black wire is the ground for the distributor pickup. The orange and purple go from the pickup to the GM 8pin module.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

toothofwar wrote:The black wire is the ground for the distributor pickup. The orange and purple go from the pickup to the GM 8pin module.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
Thank you. As it’s just poking out of the wire loom very obviously, I wonder if I did have it connected but I can’t find proof anywhere that I did. Weird. I thought I was very through installing everything and going step by step in the instructions. Image
I’ll make an extension for the wire and run it to ground. I did hook up a jumper wire to ground it but didn’t notice any difference. Oh well, it’s supposed to be a nice day again so I have an excuse to work on the Jeep some more. Image
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

So I can’t say the black wire changed anything. Drivability is still hit or miss. It hasn’t been running as rich and the dieseling sounds seem to be gone. I did get a couple burps (baby backfires) Tuesday or Wednesday and the CEL still comes on and remains. I have my book back out and am going through it again to see what else I can try.
User avatar

babywag
Posts: 1217
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Land of Fruit Loops & Coconuts

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by babywag »

What are the codes?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Going to pull codes today if the "honey do" list allows me time.
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Looks like the only codes are the 1-12 which is supposed to be there. The other ok me is a 4-4 code which is low V to O2? Not sure what that is about.
User avatar

babywag
Posts: 1217
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Land of Fruit Loops & Coconuts

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by babywag »

poor harness engine ground or possibly running too lean.
What's the fuel pressure?
harness ground is bolted to clean shiny metal somewhere on engine?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

babywag wrote:poor harness engine ground or possibly running too lean.
What's the fuel pressure?
harness ground is bolted to clean shiny metal somewhere on engine?
I used a bolt boss on top of the intake manifold for ground and remember cleaning it shiny. I also ran a secondary ground from that to the battery. I’ll revisit that tomorrow and see if it’s still good.
I don’t have a way to measure fuel pressure here but I can’t see how anything that would prevent what the kit is designed with. May look into digging out my gauge and test it if nothing else fixes it.
I wonder if it running rich did some kind of damage to the O2 sensor?
User avatar

babywag
Posts: 1217
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Land of Fruit Loops & Coconuts

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by babywag »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
babywag wrote:poor harness engine ground or possibly running too lean.
What's the fuel pressure?
harness ground is bolted to clean shiny metal somewhere on engine?
I wonder if it running rich did some kind of damage to the O2 sensor?
Unlikely, inspect the wiring closely?
running a fuel pump out of fuel or low fuel repeatedly can overheat and damage them.

A datalog would be extremely useful to aid in diagnosing as well.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
User avatar

Bill usn-1
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:23 pm
Location: Whidbey Island, Wa
Contact:

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by Bill usn-1 »

Just checked in and saw this post.
Not sure if Ted ever called me but I could have cleared up a lot of the questions.
The black wire from the distr pickup is there to help with EMI/RFI.
It does not need to be connected on the opposite end as it is there to help send voltage spikes from surrounding wiring to ground thru the distr base.
It is not used on all distr pickups but the Duraspark has it so instead of just removing it, I run with the other leads unterminated.

Looking at the 1 pic, it appears that the plug and coil wires are intermixed with the EFI system wiring.
This is a basic no no.
The ppl/org distr pickup leads are literally running between 2 plug wires.

Just like connecting a timing light to plug wire, the pulses are picked up on the out side and sent to the light.
Those same pulses are sent directly to the ECM and cause all kinds of errors in the signals.
Most notably will be RPM spikes of 6375. This will spike timing and fuel for that one pulse and the return to normal on the next.
Obviously causing running issues.
All plug wires must be of good quality carbon core suppression wires and should not be any new fangled low resistance spiro, magna, spiral...core. etc.
They must be routed above all wiring with a good air gap.
Use plastic wire looms or simply use a large zip tie around 4 of them and then a small tie between each wire.
Lightly snug down so it holds itself in place.
Work from the cap to the plugs.
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Bill!!!

Yessir, we talked a few hours when I first messed with it. This is nothing to do with your kit or your extremely helpful...help? you’ve been great and I’m certain it’s something to do with either my install or the engine itself. I only have a little time here or there to mess with it so I started this thread instead of keeping you on the phone for hours.
If the weather behaves this weekend I will try and reroute wires to see if that helps. I’ve been driving it everyday to work and while it’s far from perfect it’s light years ahead of the old carb.
User avatar

Bill usn-1
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:23 pm
Location: Whidbey Island, Wa
Contact:

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by Bill usn-1 »

Ted,
Was this the Howell dodge system I helped you convert to timing control for the AMC 360?
Just trying to figure out what were dealing with.
If so, I'm not showing any data logs or BLM files from you.
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Bill usn-1 wrote:Ted,
Was this the Howell dodge system I helped you convert to timing control for the AMC 360?
Just trying to figure out what were dealing with.
If so, I'm not showing any data logs or BLM files from you.
No sir. This is the full kit we bought from you for the wife's Waggy. 91, stock 360. We did do the timing dizzy in your kit as well. I had installed it and had some issues. We spoke for a couple hours on the phone and you ended up sending me a replacement chip.
I did download the wimaldl thing and tried to make some sense of it but can't get it to do anything I understand as far as data logging. Again, probably my ineptitude with computers but I'm used to it.
One thing I did find that had helped was I had run the Map sensor vac line to the wrong place. Moving it from direct manifold port on the intake to the port on the base of the tbi helped.
I’ve noticed the oil pressure sending unit seems to be leaking, would that have any effect? It’s not leaking where it screws into the manifold but where the black plastic upper is molded into the base.
Tomorrow the weather should be nicer and I will try and reroute the wires to eliminate any possibility of interference. I believe the plug wires came with the kit but I can’t swear to that. My memory sucks.Image
One thing I can say is I have to wait for it to fully warm up to operating temp before driving. Otherwise it will sputter under acceleration and have sort of an internal(?) backfire? It has this “backfire” thing happen while driving too. It’s very random, only goes pop once, and sounds like a backfire but like it’s happening inside the motor as opposed to coming back through the intake...if that makes any sense? What I would call detonation if I had to guess.
I’ve tried different grades of fuel and there isn’t really any change.
Some days it seems to drive less poorly and only has a few stumbles or pops. Some days it’s pretty annoying. I know my gear ratio has a lot to do with the lack of power but when it’s having fits running it is embarrassingly low on power.
Any thoughts you have to help are appreciated.
I’ll try and make a couple videos tomorrow of it running. Maybe that will help.
User avatar

Bill usn-1
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:23 pm
Location: Whidbey Island, Wa
Contact:

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by Bill usn-1 »

What name did you buy it under?
There's no oil pressure sender with my kit.
No plug wires either.
Try to reroute the wires.
The ignition module is normally mounted under the same bolt that holds the coil bracket. That way it lays flat.
The system wiring should run flat along the manifold.
Plug wires and coil wire should run above everything and have an air gap separation.

Then take a few pics of the of the engine to show the basic install and wiring.
You can email them to me.
Then get the laptop, logging instructions, and cable in front of you and call me.
I'll walk you thru it.
User avatar

Topic author
tedlovesjeeps71
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Hamilton FI, more effort

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

So I did some reading this weekend trying to keep my mind occupied. Memorial day isn't a good holiday for me...too many friends gone.
Anyhoo... I came across something that sounds very similar to what Walter is experiencing and figured I'd seek some input.

Weak valve spring (s)??

So Walter idles fine and generally seems ok but as you crack the throttle more and the engine revs higher it develops a pop/misfire and feels gutless.

"Symptoms of Weak Valve Springs

Weak valve springs will typically cause misfiring and a loss of power as engine speed increases. The engine may start and idle fine, or run normally up to 3500 to 4000 RPM. But at higher speeds, it may misfire and lose power because the valves are floating because the springs are weak and unable to keep up with the speed of the valvetrain."

Sounds very similar to the above.
Now as best I can tell there are 160xxx miles on the original motor and never had a rebuild. Given it sat for 10 years in a field, it's safe to say it probably never got regular maintenance.
So what's the best way to test for weak valve springs? Where should I look for decent replacements? I'd probably just do a bench top rebuild on the heads (umbrella seals, cleaning, head gaskets) along with new springs but I'd rather not do it if that isn't the issue.
Any thoughts??
Post Reply