Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

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Topic author
Atevres
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Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:38 pm

Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by Atevres »

Good morning to all of you
Have patience I write from Venice - Italy, this is my first post, but 2 years that I follow you and read, and thanks to a lot of your information here, I chose the Mio GW 89 black, and I can do the maintenance almost completely only.

Now I am writing to ask for your help in clarifying some of my doubts about the TBI conversion.
I read, a lot here and on binderplanet, and I made sure that the best TBI kit is that of Bill Hamilton, with GM parts and time control.
For the ease of installation, for the possibility of a more prone touning, and especially for the great preparation of Bill in this field.

My '89 black is now configured with all the emissions control system installed.
I changed and installed a new smog pump 2 months ago.
I installed a few months ago a new exhaust 3 "Magnaflow with cat to air intake (taken BJ), excellent performance and sound.
All vacuum lines are correctly connected and functioning, including the various CTO and EGR valve ports. Stock control module ignition.
I upgraded HEI Ford cap, new rotor, cables, coil.
It runs perfectly and strong.
I can only "complain" difficult ignition after 5-6 days of non-use, where I have to insist many times with the starter motor pima that comes on. This does not happen if I use it the day before or ten minutes before, where hot or cold comes on immediately and promptly. I believe it depends on the mechanical fuel pump, even if new.
Air choke works perfectly and after 2 minutes the minimum is lowered correctly.
No hesitation in cold or heat.
I adjusted the ignition timing with vacuum gauge, anticipating ulteriormnte until maximum reading vacuum (20-21hg) and abassed by 1 point hg to avoid ping - not preent). I believe very much in the adjustment of the times with a vacuum gauge, for me a real essential tool in the garage.
This is not my first experience with V8, I've had other American cars over the years, but they did not have such "complex" emissions control. So I read a lot to understand how it works, and to keep it at its best.
(I am aware that emissions control does not steal the engine from the hp and helps it work better, cooler and less nox emissions - so I would like to keep it as much as possible stocck).

In Italy, emissions control under review, for vehicles over 30 years, are controlled as in your States, CA.
It is checked visually that there is cat and smog pump (when this standard present).

From what I understand a TBI kit does not work correctly (false CO sensor reading) with the smog pump. Until now OK I understand why.
I wonder :
1 - Can not TBI be tuned with Smog pump?
2 - Remove the smog pump, it involves changing the cat with 3-way type without air (ok) and plug the holes on the manifold - could I leave connected but make it non-operational?
3 - EGR valve how is it connected to vacuum doors? Is a modified EGR valve required? Com works TBI with EGR valola? If I understand correctly, EGR also influences CO values ​​when reading the TBI system. Why these settings may vary with EGR and not smog pump?
4 - Leaving EGR installed, do I have to leave also active EGR TVS on the air filter box?
5 - It is correct (for greater safety) to update with new purchase of all CTOs (the rear 5-way and the front spark, since it must remove HDC CTO to connect liquid temperature sensor cooling). Which and where can I buy a new CTO 5-door? (3 doors cto I saw sells BJ)

6 - Why I saw many of you montao kit TBI Howell, Fitech, Holley, where time control is not possible? It is clear that the true benefit of a tbi kit is the control of the times, otherwise it becomes a simple electronic carburettor - this I ask for my curiosity and perhaps because something escapes me.

Thanks for helping me to clarify some doubts with some advice. Have patience on my English, I'm getting help from Google translated. ;)

Good Sunday to all of you
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az chip
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by az chip »

I can only "complain" difficult ignition after 5-6 days of non-use, where I have to insist many times with the starter motor pima that comes on. This does not happen if I use it the day before or ten minutes before, where hot or cold comes on immediately and promptly. I believe it depends on the mechanical fuel pump, even if new.
Hello sir,

I have also had that with a mechanical pump. Do you have a visible fuel filter in the fuel line to carb? Can you put one in to troubleshoot? You should have no fuel problems. You should have 15 psi at the TBI unit. I placed a fuel pressure gauge on my TBI when I had it to troubleshoot my issue.

I have done EGR with TBI on a Edelbrock Intake. I used vacuum off the rear port for that.
'81 Cherokee Chief 81 WT Chief/MSD 6/Holley Sniper/ Rusty 4" Spring lift/ Bulltear oil adapter/K&P Engineering Oil Filter/ NP 208/ Serehill Light Harness/KC LED Headlights/ Evil Twin Fab Roof Rack and sliders/ Ross mirror mounts.

Topic author
Atevres
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Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by Atevres »

Thanks for your answer Chip.
The fuel filter is present, installed between fuel pump and carburettor.
It 'a problem that I do not worry too much with which I can live together until the installation of the TBI system with an electric pump.

I do not want to change the original intake with anyone else (Edelbrock, Holley, etc.), I think a 2V is more than enough to use these cars, and with the original EGR valve system a solution can be found.

Thank you
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derf
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by derf »

I installed a TBI fuel injection system on mine. Everything is connected but it is non-functional. I blocked the vacuum line to the air valve between the air pump and the manifolds by injecting RTV silicone into the hose at one end. The valve never changes to push air to the manifolds. In my case, it always vents to the atmosphere. Though if yours switches between the manifolds and the catalytic converter, you may need to ensure it always goes to the catalytic converter (before the oxygen sensor).

I also have capped off the bowl vent connection between the carburetor and the charcoal canister. The TBI system does not have a vent (it's a sealed system) so I have no provision for that in my setup. I used "T" connectors to join hoses together instead.

My system looks correct but it does not cause problems with the TBI tuning.

Topic author
Atevres
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by Atevres »

Which Tbi system did you install Derf?
What you say seems to be: "Keep appearance but do not work". I see.
I ask, however, it is possible to keep appearance and functionality together? If someone has ever done.
Or should I surrender to this apparent-non-functioning? Thank you
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derf
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by derf »

I have a Holley Avenger TBI, which is no longer made.

The core problem with fuel injection and the AIR injection system is that all that extra fresh air in the exhaust will give you a false reading from the O2 sensor, and that will cause your fuel injection to dump too much fuel into the engine. This will kill fuel economy and cause it to run rough, or even not stay running at all. Any fuel injection system that uses an O2 sensor before the catalytic converter will have this problem when you enable the AIR injection system at the manifolds on the AMC engine.

The best thing to do if you absolutely have to have the emissions systems there for inspection purposes is to disable it from blowing air in at the manifolds. After the O2 sensor is fine. But not before.

Emissions laws vary from location to location here in the US. In some states, you only need to pass tail pipe emissions standards. It doesn't matter what you do to the vehicle as long as the exhaust meets standards. Other states have a very rigorous standard for visual inspection. Given that a fuel injection system almost always runs with better emissions than any carburetor, many states are happy with a fuel injection system upgrade. I would check with the local authorities and have a conversation with them about what you have and how your upgrade exceeds emission standards and why that should make you exempt from passing the strict visual inspection. It is worth a try.

But if you absolutely need to pass visual inspection, it is mostly easy to make the system appear to be functional but have it disabled. My air pump is connected to the engine, all of the hoses are there. All of the pipes to the exhaust manifold are there. The diverter valve (between the air pump and the manifolds) is there. But it doesn't do anything. Air is never sent through the exhaust manifold. So I will (mostly) pass a visual inspection. The only thing not there is a connection to the bowl vent on the carburetor. And that is because my throttle body does not have that connection anywhere. It doesn't have a bowl to vent. The hose that would run to that connection is routed to another hose in the system so that it will pull a vacuum on the charcoal canister, which captures fumes from the fuel tank vent and meets the intent of the emissions laws if not the letter of the law.

Topic author
Atevres
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by Atevres »

Thank you for your answer Derf, very appreciated and clear. Leave the smog pump installed and deactivate it because it does not introduce air into the various collectors and cat is my intention, and I understand very well how this negatively affects the sensor O2 readings and consequent incorrect correction operations of the TBI system. I also understand that I have to replace the cat Magnaflow with air intake, with a 3-way one without entry. I do not understand, however, I'm sorry, the Egr valve remains operational right? How? Where and how to block the air flow of the pump? Can I keep the canister bin installed and operational? If it were possible to see a diagram of the vacuum system and lines as you intended, it would be easier for me to understand. Even a simple hand drawing on paper.
Thank you again for your availability and help.
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babywag
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by babywag »

For TBI virtually none of the existing mess is needed.
Keeps EGR, PCV, Vapor canister, the whole vacuum kludge can go, as well as the air injection system.

Here is a diagram of the Howell TBI system, and it's how both of my smog legal ones are set up.

Image
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

Topic author
Atevres
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by Atevres »

babywag wrote:For TBI virtually none of the existing mess is needed.
Keeps EGR, PCV, Vapor canister, the whole vacuum kludge can go, as well as the air injection system.

Here is a diagram of the Howell TBI system, and it's how both of my smog legal ones are set up.

Image
Thank you for your answer babywag :) , much appreciated also the scheme that clarifies many doubts (images sometimes make more clarity of a thousand words!). Question: the J vacuum port where you connected the dist is because your dist has no time set by the ecm?
I taking the dist with times set by ecm I should not use any source vac for the dist, correct? The CTO valve where you connected egr is "spark cto" (reference 89 vacuum scheme)? How is the line connected to this CTO? I understand that you have 2 lines to be connected. What is clear is that I delete the air pump system (I was told that there is no visual examination of the components that do not know inside the engine compartment, only if present cat) and substitute Magnaflow cat with air intake, with new cat at 3 Magnaflow streets without air intake (already seen on Summit) and plug the holes on the left and right manifold (better! more hands space to do maintenance - even just changing candles was contortionism).
Thank you ;)
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babywag
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by babywag »

Mine are a little different. I use timing control.
Howell simply uses stock non timing control setup and distributor is on manifold vacuum TB port.
EGR is connected via CTO on ported vacuum TB port.
TBI is very simple vacuum setup.

Here is the CARB EO write-up/approval.
https://arb.parts/Executive-Order/D-452-2.pdf
Take note is specifically states removal is required of the useless emissions 'bits.
You could likely use to make your case for removal if you have to go through testing.
CA is pretty strict if we can get away with it, you likely can as well?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

Topic author
Atevres
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Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by Atevres »

The Howell writing is very clear and appreciated.
At the truth here in Italy do not know how stock is born an AMC360 on GW'89. It is not indicated, either carburetor or TBI. This does not affect. It is indicated that a cat is present from the factory, so I will have to leave it installed and efficient. What they control are the nox output values ​​at idle speed.
Cars that are over 30 years old must respect a value: a car from 1935 for example, or a car from 1985, however with more than 30 years, must respect the same value. I do not believe that the GW with a TBI system and cat can reach even 30% of that value. What's more, the experience is a great job for the driveability that this update can dare. I would like to start the conversion with the most possible parts and not find myself unprepared with pieces and missing parts, United States/Italy a week.

CTO: is it worth buying and installing new ones during the conversion? Can you dare more security? After 30 years of work will they be "tired"? (I do not want for $ 50 of parts to see me stuck or doubtful)
Same thing as egr valve, is it worth its replacement in the conversion?
Then again: the valve TVS on the air filter, can simply be removed and plugged I think I understand.
The air filter stock, amount of thickness at the base to not interfere with tbi?

Thanks for your time
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babywag
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by babywag »

Cannot hurt to buy a new CTO and EGR.
95% the emissions stuff, lines, etc. get removed if following how Howell TBI is setup.
So the TVS and all other vacuum lines also go away, including the vacuum pods on the air cleaner snorkel.
In fact it allows an aftermarket air cleaner if desired.

With a new CAT a TBI equipped engine will have very low emissions and should easily pass any test.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

Topic author
Atevres
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Re: Clarification EGR - Smog pump and more with Hamilton TBI

Post by Atevres »

Perfect, very clear.
Thank you so much babywag
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