GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

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dodgerammit
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GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby dodgerammit » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:23 pm

Okay, been doing some initial reading on junkyard tbi conversions for Radio flyer.

From what I've gathered, I need to look for:

ECM with part number of 1227747 or 1228746 ECM.
I'm guessing these part numbers can be had on both v6 and v8 models?
I need to preferably find a v8 unit, though, correct?
The 1228746 requires an IAT sensor and a different chip than the 7747


A 305 or 350 throttle body (if 305, need new injectors).

The injectors I am most likely looking for are:

Color code Orange/Black
Engine 5.7L PU
Flow 61 lbs/hr @ 12psi
68lb/hr at 15psi
TBI bore 43mm
GM part # 5235206

or:

Color code Yellow/Brown
Engine 5.7L CopCar
Flow 65 lbs/hr @ 12psi
72.6@15psi
TBI bore 43mm
GM part # 17084327

The harness can come from any donor. Correct?

Pull CTS from donor

Bung for O2 sensor

Fuel pump relay from donor

Power relay

Adapter plate from Hamilton

Distributor
As far as the Dizzy goes, I've recently converted to MSD streetfire. According to Bill's post, I can retain my stock distributor but will need a special filter to run between your ignition and the computer. Anyone have experience with this? Thoughts?

Map sensor

If I use the 1228746 ECM I need to snag the IAT off the air cleaner.

Knock sensor and control

16052401 .............10456288 .................5.7L V8
16128261 .............10456288 .................5.7L V8
16065711 .............10456288 .................4.3L V6, 5.7L V8
16128251 .............10456288 .................4.3L V6, 5.7L V8

VSS

As far as coil, I already have the TFI conversion done.

I'll have to get a windows computer with a CD drive to do programming Or do I? (I run Linux and generally despise windoze).
After gathering some parts, probably need to contact Bill for more in depth info and to get the chips done.

Any other comments?
Thank you for your time. Looking to make the transition soon.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red with Honey interior) AMC 360/727/229 TFI conversion, MSD streetfire ignition, D44/AMC20 :fsj:

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby FSJ Guy » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:15 am

If you're going to get a laptop, might as well get the programming equipment, too! :- )

www.moates.net has what you need. But if you're not comfortable soldering, you can have a friend do it. Since you've figured out how to run Linux, I suspect you'll be OK running the EEPROM burner program and TunerPro on your laptop. If not, ignore this paragraph and have someone else burn your chips for you. LOL!

It is ideal to get the harness from the vehicle that you got the ECM from, but if you can't, it's easy to repin a harness and add pins.

If you add timing control to your system (highly recommended!), you can trigger the ECM DIRECTLY from your stock distributor. And still use the streetfire box. Welding or some other method is required to lock out the mechanical advance on the distributor.

See my website for a description of how I did it.

Also, www.gearhead-efi.com is an EXCELLENT source of information, including wiring diagrams and ECM pin out data.
Ethan Brady

http://www.bigscaryjeep.com

1987 Grand Wagoneer. Slightly longer than stock.

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby 243 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:36 pm

I am planning to sell the TBI system off my Cherokee less the in tank pump, I modified the harness and Bill H. provided the tune.
1978 Cherokee NT, 360/T400/QT TBI Injected

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dodgerammit
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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby dodgerammit » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:37 pm

FSJ Guy wrote:If you're going to get a laptop, might as well get the programming equipment, too! :- )

http://www.moates.net has what you need. But if you're not comfortable soldering, you can have a friend do it. Since you've figured out how to run Linux, I suspect you'll be OK running the EEPROM burner program and TunerPro on your laptop. If not, ignore this paragraph and have someone else burn your chips for you. LOL!

It is ideal to get the harness from the vehicle that you got the ECM from, but if you can't, it's easy to repin a harness and add pins.

If you add timing control to your system (highly recommended!), you can trigger the ECM DIRECTLY from your stock distributor. And still use the streetfire box. Welding or some other method is required to lock out the mechanical advance on the distributor.

See my website for a description of how I did it.

Also, http://www.gearhead-efi.com is an EXCELLENT source of information, including wiring diagrams and ECM pin out data.



Okay, so the streetfire and tfi stuff would stay, but I'd remove the weights, the vacuum line to the advance and tack weld the shafts together? And then modify the dizzy with gm module? Or just hook it up to the ecm and the streetfire is the module?

Sorry, this is a bit of a learning curve as far as the dizzy goes. Everything else seems pretty explanatory.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red with Honey interior) AMC 360/727/229 TFI conversion, MSD streetfire ignition, D44/AMC20 :fsj:

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby FSJ Guy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:09 am

No need to remove the weights. I just tacked welded the mechanical advance together. Leave the springs in there so you're welding it together with ZERO advance. Leave the vacuum advance in place. It, too, will hold the distributor at zero advance. Run an vac hose underneath your air cleaner if you need to have it hooked up for visual inspection. :- )

The distributor output will go to the P/N pins of the 7 pin ignition module. Plenty of schematics on how to wire that up. Again, check http://www.gearhead-efi.com for schematics, etc.
Ethan Brady

http://www.bigscaryjeep.com

1987 Grand Wagoneer. Slightly longer than stock.

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby Blake » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:05 am

Wiring up the dizzy to the TBI is always the confusing part. You can actually get the P and N wires reversed and it will run, but badly. When wiring up the ignition, I just put them all together so it runs the best, then deal with cleaning up the wiring properly after it runs.

With regards to some of your questions that you PMd me:

MPG - you MPG will vary. TBI does not necessarily get better mileage. I really depends on how you tune the fuel maps/ignition maps. I would not be surprised to see a slight decrease in mileage as the engine can run as it actually should. Sometimes carbs are a little lean.

You do need to go ahead and start playing with winaldl and/or TunerPro. I suggest you setup the wiring hardness/TBI/sensors on the bench and get it connected to your laptop and working with those programs. You should be able to see the status of the 7747 ECM and all the sensors on the bench. For bonus points you can connect a dizzy/coil and turn the shaft to get it to fire the injectors. All on the bench. Wiring tip: if you have a stock and unmolested TBI harness, the best way to feed 12V power to the system is a red wire (that I think has a white strip) near the actual TBI connector (the big one that goes thru the FW). There is another connector there that feeds into the stock GM wiring harness under the dash of the truck. Oh and another tip: the red/white strip wires are typically switched Key On 12V +. The Orange wires are typically the constant Battery 12v + that is always on when the battery is connected. The ECM needs power even when the engine is off. The GM wiring color scheme is actually pretty consistent even to modern day engines. I know my 8.1 vortec wiring harness was surprisingly close to the old TBI stuff with regards to the wire colors.

I think of a junkyard TBI conversion to have essentially two phases: First phase is physically wiring and plumbing it up and getting the engine to run. Second phase is tuning. I'm still stuck on the tuning phase on my AMC 360 junkyard TBI on my rock crawler Honcho. It runs pretty dang good and actually achieved 15MPG on the hwy a couple of years ago (it has AMC 360/nv4500/atlas/tons/42's and 5.38 gears). But my cold start is not always perfect. I've since moved offgrid and tuning my TBI is pretty low on the priority list. It starts and runs fine, just no longer 'perfect'.

Good luck with your conversion and post on here with any questions. There is a LOT of information (and misinformation) out there on the net. We can help you on here tho...

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby dodgerammit » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:24 am

FSJ Guy wrote:No need to remove the weights. I just tacked welded the mechanical advance together. Leave the springs in there so you're welding it together with ZERO advance. Leave the vacuum advance in place. It, too, will hold the distributor at zero advance. Run an vac hose underneath your air cleaner if you need to have it hooked up for visual inspection. :- )

The distributor output will go to the P/N pins of the 7 pin ignition module. Plenty of schematics on how to wire that up. Again, check http://www.gearhead-efi.com for schematics, etc.


Yeah, I checked your dizzy welding link last night. Is there any reason I can't leave it in the vehicle while doing this mod?

No need for inspection where i live, thankfully.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red with Honey interior) AMC 360/727/229 TFI conversion, MSD streetfire ignition, D44/AMC20 :fsj:

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby dodgerammit » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:33 am

Blake wrote:Wiring up the dizzy to the TBI is always the confusing part. You can actually get the P and N wires reversed and it will run, but badly. When wiring up the ignition, I just put them all together so it runs the best, then deal with cleaning up the wiring properly after it runs.

With regards to some of your questions that you PMd me:

MPG - you MPG will vary. TBI does not necessarily get better mileage. I really depends on how you tune the fuel maps/ignition maps. I would not be surprised to see a slight decrease in mileage as the engine can run as it actually should. Sometimes carbs are a little lean.


As long as it holds between 12-15mpg, I think I'll call it a win. I'm not expecting 18-20 out of it.

Blake wrote:You do need to go ahead and start playing with winaldl and/or TunerPro. I suggest you setup the wiring hardness/TBI/sensors on the bench and get it connected to your laptop and working with those programs. You should be able to see the status of the 7747 ECM and all the sensors on the bench. For bonus points you can connect a dizzy/coil and turn the shaft to get it to fire the injectors. All on the bench. Wiring tip: if you have a stock and unmolested TBI harness, the best way to feed 12V power to the system is a red wire (that I think has a white strip) near the actual TBI connector (the big one that goes thru the FW). There is another connector there that feeds into the stock GM wiring harness under the dash of the truck. Oh and another tip: the red/white strip wires are typically switched Key On 12V +. The Orange wires are typically the constant Battery 12v + that is always on when the battery is connected. The ECM needs power even when the engine is off. The GM wiring color scheme is actually pretty consistent even to modern day engines. I know my 8.1 vortec wiring harness was surprisingly close to the old TBI stuff with regards to the wire colors.


This is my plan-to bench test everything first with fuel using a platform over a catch can for the tb. I do need to snag a decent laptop computer. I believe something obsolete with basic xp and a cd and usb drives would suffice. I'll call Bill and check out moates or tuner pro for system requirements.

Blake wrote:I think of a junkyard TBI conversion to have essentially two phases: First phase is physically wiring and plumbing it up and getting the engine to run. Second phase is tuning. I'm still stuck on the tuning phase on my AMC 360 junkyard TBI on my rock crawler Honcho. It runs pretty dang good and actually achieved 15MPG on the hwy a couple of years ago (it has AMC 360/nv4500/atlas/tons/42's and 5.38 gears). But my cold start is not always perfect. I've since moved offgrid and tuning my TBI is pretty low on the priority list. It starts and runs fine, just no longer 'perfect'.

Good luck with your conversion and post on here with any questions. There is a LOT of information (and misinformation) out there on the net. We can help you on here tho...


From what I read, if properly installed, the system should run and drive decent enough to not need an immediate tune. 15mpg highway in stock Waggy form is my goal. Thanks for your assistance.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red with Honey interior) AMC 360/727/229 TFI conversion, MSD streetfire ignition, D44/AMC20 :fsj:

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby Blake » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:59 am

If you are expecting to just use the stock tune (I believe this is the ASDU chip) and want to 'just run it', then yes, that is possible but you will have to physically advance your distributor. It won't run (much at all) on zero physical timing. I think I have my honcho set for maybe 10 degrees ish of physical timing AND have added timing in the tune. AMC V8's love timing.

with regards to the system requirements to run winaldl or TunerPro.... any windows OS that boots up and has a USB (or serial if you want old school) will work fine. no Linux. Heck, I think even win95/98/me will work. I had it working on the preview edition of Win8 a couple of years ago.

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby babywag » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:25 pm

Blake wrote:It won't run (much at all) on zero physical timing. I think I have my honcho set for maybe 10 degrees ish of physical timing AND have added timing in the tune.


Huh? Both mine and several others I've helped folks with, are all 0* initial in tune/engine initial timing at 0*, and they run just fine.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby Blake » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:40 pm

I am at altitude

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby az chip » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:15 pm

He is in Colorado. So he is high.
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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby FSJ Guy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:47 pm

I also run 10 or 15 degrees "base" or initial timing. Also at similar altitude to Blake, just not as high.

X2 on AMC's loving timing.

Forgot about getting the P/N wires "mixed" up! Good catch, Blake!

You could just put a 12V load on your fuel pump to simulate a fuel pump. Probably easier and safer than flowing gasoline everywhere....

For computer, you don't need a CD drive. Just a native USB port and running at least XP. That should not be too difficult. I've run TunerPro on a Windows 10 machine. It works.
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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby babywag » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:00 pm

Altitude shouldn't be a factor if the timing table is setup correctly.
Look @ the timing table, it's RPM x MAP, MAP corrects for altitude.

Base timing is active @ engine start and that's it, soon as it's running it's using the timing table.
Saying that AMC's don't run @ 0* base timing is just incorrect.

On stock ASDU anything above 400-1000rpm and MAP of 30-50, timing is 26*, how is that not going to run? Even @ altitude?
If a guy needs some more timing and can't tune, yeah advance the distributor ~4*.

Image
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby dodgerammit » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:03 pm

Okay, been thinking of how the ecu, my dizzy and the streetfire work together.

Sorry, I'm just making sure I wrap my head around this.

Weld the advance weights in '0*' position (springs attached to make sure).
Hook + and - wire to ecu from dizzy. ECU will control timing.
Dizzy is also hooked to streetfire for ignition source. Are the same + and - wires used?

Here is how my current setup is:
Image
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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby babywag » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:26 am

for timing control you need add a gm module capable of controlling timing. you can't wire it up like that.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby Blake » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:42 am

@babywag LMFAO. you are right, I definitely don't know how to properly tune. But I tell ya what, my junk gets run almost everyday: Dragging trees around as we are building a cabin on the mountain, going 'wheeling as there is a large forest service trail network literally across the road from me with some stuff on it that challenges even my rig, oh and snow bashing. Just last month we got over 4 feet of snow.

All I can say is that my junk runs good enough for what I do even tho I can't tune.

@dodgerammit babywag is right: You must run either a 7 pin or 8 pin GM ignition module. I personally prefer a GM HEI distributor with the 7 pin module inside the distributor. That really cleans up the wiring because it's hidden inside. If you decide to run an 8 pin, then you must deal with locating the 8 pin module somewhere that you can affix a heat sink to it and then you must deal with all the wiring.

so I recommend you scrap your existing dizzy and get a GM HEI dizzy that is made for an AMC V8 and stuff a 7 pin module in it.

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby babywag » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:07 am

Blake, not raggin' on ya, just tryin' to clarify for folks. 0*, 10*, 15* base timing shouldn't matter if timing table it adjusted to compensate.
However, if stock prom/bin, you gotta set it to 0* or close to it, otherwise you'll be running too much timing.
For example if you time engine to 10* or 15*, and don't adjust the timing table you'd be adding that 10*/15* across the board.
It'll run like absolute poo poo that way. Run risk of detonation, and probably have heat issues.

A stock prom should run "ok" (even @ altitude) for a new guy who doesn't have all the tuning hardware.
May set some error codes, and won't be perfect, but it'll run good enough to get down the road.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby dodgerammit » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:08 am

This is what was confusing me. Ethan had stated I could run both.

FSJ Guy wrote:If you're going to get a laptop, might as well get the programming equipment, too! :- )

http://www.moates.net has what you need. But if you're not comfortable soldering, you can have a friend do it. Since you've figured out how to run Linux, I suspect you'll be OK running the EEPROM burner program and TunerPro on your laptop. If not, ignore this paragraph and have someone else burn your chips for you. LOL!

It is ideal to get the harness from the vehicle that you got the ECM from, but if you can't, it's easy to repin a harness and add pins.

If you add timing control to your system (highly recommended!), you can trigger the ECM DIRECTLY from your stock distributor. And still use the streetfire box. Welding or some other method is required to lock out the mechanical advance on the distributor.

See my website for a description of how I did it.

Also, http://www.gearhead-efi.com is an EXCELLENT source of information, including wiring diagrams and ECM pin out data.


I know there are issues with the gear if mounting another dizzy. Do I reuse the original, or is there a new one that is high quality?

Any links or P/Ns to a decent 7 pin HEI unit?
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red with Honey interior) AMC 360/727/229 TFI conversion, MSD streetfire ignition, D44/AMC20 :fsj:

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Re: GM Junkyard TBI planning phase

Postby Blake » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:11 am

you will keep your existing dizzy gear and put it on the new HEI shaft. ALWAYS match AMC stock dizzy gears to the AMC cam gear.

I know there are a lot of choices out there for HEI dizzies. I can't remember which one I have, but it seems to work fine.


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