Jason's TBI thread

[sgtpoliteness]

So, Blake advised me to start up a thread to convert my '77 Cherokee to TBI. This is going to be a longer term project and I plan on getting most of what I need via our local Upullandpay yard. I'm no stranger to wiring and fabricating bits and pieces. I've read bistatebinders.com cover to cover at this point and have a pretty good idea of all I need to pick up. I'll update this thread with as much detail and pictures as possible to maybe help out the next n00b wanting to do this.

I'm doing it for a few reasons. Cold start reliability (it gets cold here in the winter, especially up in the mountains), much improved fuel management over a wide altitude range (in a few hours I can go from a couple thousand feet in western Kansas for turkey hunting to 10k+ in Leadville) and also so my wife, if need be, can hop in, crank it off and just go. No choke or anything to be a bother. Also, I like the adaptability of the TBI systems using just my laptop. Don't me wrong, I love carbs, but if I can avoid getting gas all over myself - rad.

Any advise is MUCH appreciated!

[babywag]

My .02 for whatever it's worth.

Start with a 16197427 PCM way better than the 1227747.
You can still use a 7747 harness w/ the 7427 PCM, just need to swap PCM plugs & re-pin it.

My '88 runs the newer 7427, and my '90 runs the older slower 7747.

[sgtpoliteness]

Thanks! What do you feel is the difference between the two? Is the processor time that much faster it makes a difference?

[AwesomeJ10]

I think a 7427 is much faster.

All of mine are 7747 except the J20 which is a 1614428 (same harness and pins as a 7747, but apparently doesn't have as much support in tuner pro)

I'm getting WAY WAY WAY fed up with the 7747 TBI in the 401 waggy. It's not running right and it's all my fault as I've failed to properly setup the IAC or tune it since doing the 401 swap. My 'tuning' laptop lost a hard drive and I kinda lost interest and have been suffering with poor performance for a while. I only drive 5 miles to work with a top speed of 40, so it's not a big deal. I plan to do some tuning this weekend and follow the advice in this thread. http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inject ... start-7747 specifically the last couple of posts.

Have you purchased any tuning hardware yet? At a minimum, you will need these items.

http://www.moates.net/c2-sst-27sf512-chip-p-39.html This is the actual 'chip' that stores the 4k 'bin'.

http://www.moates.net/s4-aries-28pin-lo ... l?cPath=26 This is what you will physically solder into the ECM. It allows you to quickly remove the 'chip' from the ECM. My neighbor has soldered several of these into 7747 ECM's for me. I'm not steady enough to solder this.

http://www.moates.net/apu1-autoprom-pac ... l?cPath=97 This is the 'burner' that allows you to write the 'bin file' to the SF512 chip (listed above). I could loan this to you or burn some chips if you like. This allows you to do 'real time' data logging and adjustments in Tuner Pro while driving down the road. I've never done the realtime thing... Cheaper one here that has no realtime; http://www.moates.net/burn2-chip-progra ... l?cPath=64

And finally you will need an 'ALDL' cable for whatever type of system you build. This allows you to plug your laptop into the OBD1 port and see stuff. Assuming you go with a standard 7747 setup (probably a 7427 as well) this cable will work. http://www.aldlcable.com/sc/details.asp?item=aldlobd1u I believe there are cheaper options if you shop around on the internet. If you buy the full blown APU1 'burner' that I listed above, it comes with a cable.

You will also need to determine what kind of ignition system you are going with. I'm running a 'ford TFI' coil on the waggy 401, while I have a GM '7 pin' module with GM HEI on the 360 in the Honcho. I've also wired up a GM '8 pin' system. I can answer questions and help wire any of them. In any case, you will need to weld your distributor, so I suggest getting a couple of spares distributors from the yard. Of course that only applies if you go with a ford TFI style setup. If you go with a GM HEI system, then getting junkyard spares is impossible as no AMC ever had HEI. So I recommend a simple ford TFI setup. works great and is super cheap. Lots of people swap to a TFI setup even with carbs.

So what are your plans now?

[babywag]

The 7747 has much larger tables for fuel/spark. It also has 2 separate tables for each (near idle & off idle)
You can do away with the ESC knock module(it's integrated into memcal) & wiring.
Control a 4l60E or 4l80e.
WB02 in the datastream
Electric fan control.
Upgradeable to MPFI, can be converted to a MAF vs. speed density system.
Speed is 8192 baud vs. 7747 @ 160 baud. (just a small difference LOL)
The 7427 binary is 64k in size, while the 7747 is a tiny 4k.
The list is large of what it can do vs. the older 7747.

I prefer this distributor cap vs. the 2-piece Ford stuff.
Uses stock rotor, and has HEI style terminals.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/smp-al482
I don't really buy into the anti-cross fire thing of the larger cap. Maybe on a race car that sees high rpms, but never had a problem with a small cap on any jeep I've owned.

I also prefer the GM TBI coil, plug and play with the harness.

There is a gentleman who will convert an AMC distributor to use the top portion of a small cap GM TBI distributor.
He charges $150, and you supply an AMC duraspark distributor & a some GM small cap distributor parts.

There is sooo much info out there, I'm sure I missed things.

It's a LOT of information to absorb.

[sgtpoliteness]

I haven't bought any of the hardware yet. I want to wait until I've the ECU and harness before I commit to an exact chip.

Blake, I might just rent your burner from you if that's ok.

[sgtpoliteness]

Also, I believe I'm going to stick with my TFI set up with the TBI. I should be able to continue to use my MSD 6A, correct?

[AwesomeJ10]

Do you wanna hit the yards this weekend and get some parts? Saturday or Sunday works for me.

As far as the burner - I won't rent it to ya, but I will loan it out (for free).

[FSJ Guy]

You could start with the 7747 ECM and when it makes you mad, it's really easy to upgrade to the '7427 ECM. LOL!

If you're comfortable with computers, starting with the 16197427 ECM will be easiest. I would recommend keeping the computerized timing control and the GM 2 connector style coil. Your MSD 6A will be plug n play with the correct harness adapter.

Others have already mentioned the advantages of the better ECM. The faster data output will also enable easier tuning since you get updates at 8192 (or so) baud versus 160 baud.

If you get the AutoProm (APU1), be advised that it CAN NOT burn the larger PROM required for multiple bins on one chip for the 16197427 ECM. It can burn the smaller chip required for just one bin file, however. But if you want to be able to switch bins with the '7472 ECM, you'll need the Burn2 burner and a separate ALDL cable.

I might be able to get away this weekend to join you guys. I need to start on my new TBI conversion, too! Don't worry, I already have ECMs. I just need a wiring harness and a TBI unit.

[AwesomeJ10]

Good to see Ethan (FSJ_Guy) finally signed up on here He knows exponentially more than me about this, so I recommend following his advice.

I've thought a lot about converting one of mine to 7747, but haven't looked into it that much. I wasn't aware that it had the capability of containing multiple bins? I'll need to read up on why you would want that and if it's worth it (to me).

[FSJ Guy]

You have to use a switcher adapter from Moates.net to have multiple bins. IMHO, it's only useful for tuning. Try one setting. Then try the other. Stop, compare notes. Burn a new chip and do it all over again.

There is an RPM cutoff function in the '7747 ECM, but it's a HARD cut-off, not like an MSD rev-limiter. You could use it as a very annoying anti-theft mode. LOL!

[lobie]

- In any case, you will need to weld your distributor, so I suggest getting a couple of spares distributors from the yard.

Curious why you have to weld the dizzy. I'm not doing this but just curious.

[AwesomeJ10]

- In any case, you will need to weld your distributor, so I suggest getting a couple of spares distributors from the yard.

Curious why you have to weld the dizzy. I'm not doing this but just curious.

Well you don't HAVE to weld the dizzy. All you really need to do is physically lock the advance out so it can not move. Everyone has their own method. I welded mine.

The idea is to remove the advance system because the computer will control all spark timing.

[AwesomeJ10]

and I found a pic of a stock dizzy welded for tbi.

This one runs my 401 waggy.

[FSJ Guy]

If you don't weld the distributor, you will have to zero out all the timing tables in the bin file. Howell does not sell their "filter" board separately that allows you to hook up directly from the coil to the ECM.

So, if you're going through the hassle of wiring in the ignition timing module, etc, you might as well add timing control.

Full Disclosure: Computerized timing control is one of my favorite parts of the TBI conversion.

[lobie]

Gotcha.

Good pics.

[sgtpoliteness]

Sunday would work for me for parts hunting. I've gotta spend Saturday in Castle Rock looking at a car for my father in law.

I'm excited!

[AwesomeJ10]

On a side note - I do have a complete Howell harness, TBI, sensors, ECM, etc that I would sell.

Let's plan on Sunday around noon. I don't really need anything, but I love to browse around.

[FSJ Guy]

Sunday noon works for me, too. Where do we want to meet up?

If SgtPoliteness doesn't want it, I'd be interested... We can talk Sunday.

[AwesomeJ10]

I'll drive the waggy and be there around noon. Meet up around the FSJ section?

We are talking about this one right? http://www.upullandpay.com/denver/home