Narrowed it down

For everything related to using Fuel Injection in an FSJ.

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ShagWagon
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Narrowed it down

Post by ShagWagon »

Howell $1300
FITECH $995
Hamilton $1400

I'm an intermediate driveway mechanic. Never done this before but willing to try.

I'm leaning towards the Fitech because of price and seems a lot less clutter and it seems you don't have to mess with the distributor. I've never timed a vehicle before but somewhat have the idea.

Upon reading and scouring for quite some time, Some say you need to mess with the distributor anyways and it seems there 100 mods that everyone argues about in lingo I don't really understand. I don't want to drill a hole in my distributor cap to make sure everything lines up right that I welded together and wired shut after I tap and die a screw that I ground down so it would clear the spinner mechanism. This just sounds like something I'd screw up really bad.

Howell and Hamiltons have a distributor with the kit already setup I suppose? Fitech claims will work with my stock one.

I'm also confused about if I need to buy a fuel sending upgrade. I'd like to upgrade but not sure what to buy here.
They all 3 seem to have a new fuel pump with kit but all offer other alternatives.

Fitech has some fuel command center can thing. I can't figure out what to do with it they say it's a fuel pump but it looks huge. Where would this thing mount? Seems a good thing to have? Does it make noise? They sell another inline fuel pump separately too and a linkage for $29. Would I need all these? That would put it over $1600.

Gas tank and fuel sending unit- I just put in a newly engineered fuel sending unit piece of crap from TGW that I had to mess with 19+ times to finally get it to work right. Would I keep all that the same or do I need a new gas tank with an in tank fuel pump so it's quieter on the end of my sending unit? And a lot of talk about changing my fuel lines to bigger ones rated for hi pressure.

Also should buy the the Doug Thorlel headers they sell on BJs and have them installed first? Does Doug Thorley come with a pre installed bunghole? I was thinking to order them and have a muffler shop install them and put in a o2 bunghole so I could just screw in the o2 sensor, or should I attempt this install myself and drive down and have them install the bunghole. Seems easy enough to do but seems easy enough to not get a good gasket seal.

I'm trying to plan this thing out so that I can order everything at once and only have to do it once and not be missing anything, and get it right.Never done something like this so I could use some advice here on a list because I'm not quite sure all I'll need. I'll just go through their instructions step by step so hope they have good ones.

Thanks

Stock 87 GW.
Last edited by ShagWagon on Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.

FSJ Guy
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by FSJ Guy »

Howell is a great turnkey system. If you can install a radio, you can install this system. It is pre-modified for your FSJ. No tuning required. But it is based on a GM system so you can hack it later on if you wish. :- )

As with all FI systems that are closed loop, you will have to have an O2 sensor bung welded into your Y pipe. That is the only thing that either requires you to weld or a trip to your local muffler shop and have them do it for you. Everything else is bolt on.

I have no experience with the others.
Ethan Brady

http://www.bigscaryjeep.com

Jeepless, but I still have a lots of old parts in my garage!

rocklaurence
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by rocklaurence »

I have done the Howell but after seeing the clean installation, AutoTune I'd go with the FITECH next time.
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243
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by 243 »

Junkyard TBI is not that hard and there is a ton of information on the 'net, mine never failed to start for almost two years and when it failed, it was my fault with the grounds.

They do make no weld bungs.
1978 Cherokee NT, 5.3/4L60/NP241 in Progress

nightglide
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by nightglide »

The fitech is no.harder than changing carb and hooking up a few wires. You will need o2 bung but fitech provides a clamp on system so you don't have to weld. The fuel command center isn't really that large and all you do is hook up your mechanical fuel pump to it. I went with the in line fame mounted pump and it is very loud. It will run fine without timing control. It's not that hard to modify a duraspark distributor tho so it can control timing.
Any questions on the fitech I.can try and answer them for you. Been running it for about 4 months now.
77 J10 360/T18/Dana20
Fitech fuel injection
4" Lift....3" body lift....35" ats

Topic author
ShagWagon
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by ShagWagon »

Appearantly if I go with the Fitech I have to change my intake manifold to a 4bbl one because my stock one is a 2bbl. Edelbrock performer sells one for about $300. Gets me at $1700 for out the door with fuel command center. Also they have a $29 linkage kit. Is that needed or will my stock one work?

Holley seems to be coming out with one available early October that mimics the Fitech but claims to bolt to 2bbl. That would put me at $995 out the door?

Is 4bbl manifold better than a 2bbl?

Howell and Hamilton are $1300 and $1400 and come with a new distributor and complete out the door kit.

Also do these work with cruise control plug and play?
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.
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Cataldo
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by Cataldo »

A good aftermarket intake manifold is generally always a good power improvement piece. I'd run one with any of the systems, and just run the applicable adapter. Personally I'm probably going to pick up a Fitech unit soon.
Jay

1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.

1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)

1973 Chevy Camaro: Vortec 350, 200-4r, GM 8.5 3.23's. 12.4 @ 108mph.

1965 Ford Mustang: Aluminum Headed 347, c4, 3.00:1 gears, High 12's (Her's).



Looking for 1 good factory Kidney Bean Mag in Southern California for use as a matching spare
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wewillsurvive
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by wewillsurvive »

Everyone I know that has ever used Holley fuel injection removes it and either sells it or it rots on a shelf


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1972 Dodge Demon with a 451" stroker Big Block
1986 Jeep Grand Wagoneer AMC 360" AKA Golddigger- SOLD
2003 Dodge Crewcab 2500 Cummins longbed 4x4
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee V-6 full time 4x4


Alternators, winches, 4x4, guns all have the same issue if you don't have any knowledge of them usually bad things will happen. Serehill

FSJ Guy
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by FSJ Guy »

The old Holley TBI units were crap.

Maybe they've improved in the past 20 years...
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http://www.bigscaryjeep.com

Jeepless, but I still have a lots of old parts in my garage!

Topic author
ShagWagon
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by ShagWagon »

nightglide wrote:The fitech is no.harder than changing carb and hooking up a few wires. You will need o2 bung but fitech provides a clamp on system so you don't have to weld. The fuel command center isn't really that large and all you do is hook up your mechanical fuel pump to it. I went with the in line fame mounted pump and it is very loud. It will run fine without timing control. It's not that hard to modify a duraspark distributor tho so it can control timing.
Any questions on the fitech I.can try and answer them for you. Been running it for about 4 months now.
Is the FCC loud? And seems some have problems with the low pressure meter flickering because of some pressure problems. Any of that for you?
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.

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ShagWagon
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by ShagWagon »

Glad you guys brought up the headers thing, I was just thinking I need to resolve the o2 sensor situation first before I can install a kit.


Upon doing some research here on the forums, it seems that everybody hates all brands of headers. Seems like for every person who likes a particular set there's 2 or more that have complaints lol.....


It just seems like the thing to do since I have to have a shop weld a bunghole and hope they know what they're doing and paying for it. I could use that money towards some new headers with a better sound and a few ponies more for a few dollars more if I could purchase a header with bunghole already pre installed if they come that way? I don't mind throwing some money towards better quality if it's worth it.

Would it be smart to use the edelbrock intake with an edelbrock headers because they are designed by the same company to work with each other?

How good are the stock headers? Starting to sound pretty good to me right now if it's less hassle to just have a muffler shop add a bunghole in. Would they have the part on hand at the shop? Or would I have to order it somewhere? I can probably get a stock 4bbl intake too if it works better.

How much better and cooler are the aftermarket headers in general compared to the stock ones I currently have?

Also are these headers obnoxious loud? I'm not going for that. Don't want to disrupt the whole forest athough I'd like something that still sounds cool good.

Any special tools required for header install? I'm not foreseeing anything but I've never done it before.
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by Tatsadasayago »

You seem to be confusing headers and cast iron exhaust manifolds.
For what it's worth, the cast iron manifolds flow every bit as good as any header out there unless the exhaust ports have been opened up...kinda tough with the dogleg port btw.

Whether you choose headers or stock manifolds, you should place the O2 bung as close to the exhaust ports as practical. Around 24" from the port seems to be the sweet spot with manifolds, but headers should have the bung installed at the front edge of the collector.
Steel headers by their nature will cool off faster than cast iron manifolds so O2 sensor errors accumulate accordingly.
Contrary to popular belief, headers will give off more radiant heat than the cast manifold in a short time frame. Manifolds hold the heat and radiate at a slower rate in a typical cluttered engine compartment.
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
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Bill usn-1
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by Bill usn-1 »

If you would like specifics, simply call me.
360 969-2925
As Babywag mentioned:
My systems are complete fuel and ignition upgrades.
The only thing you provide is fuel lines.
I run what I sell.
Cheaper may not really be cheaper once your done with the install.
My kits come with the data cable and the software.
The system will autotune but I always include custom tuning for every system so the it doesn't have to adjust until conditions require it like driving to 14,000ft in CO.
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REDONE
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by REDONE »

Yes, I really wish I could have gone with Bills kit. I haven't even fired up my PFI kit and the deciding factor was that $500 difference. With my wife only back to work part time after having our baby, time and cash is at such a premium I had to go with the cheapest option that would ship the same week. You can tell by the way Bill is constantly on here and binderplanet helping people figure out fuel injection that his customer service is top notch, and who doesn't want to support a veteran owned business? I have no doubt that if/when I decide to start tuning myself that $500 difference will quickly vanish.

As for headers vs. manifolds, I am in the header hater camp. In 20+ years of wrenching and thinking I'm a hot-rodder I've run tons of headers on tons of engines and they all do one thing that is guaranteed, they LEAK. Always. Unless they're stainless steel they'll rust and look like crap too. Ceramic coatings chip and flake off, the metal and ceramic expand at different rates so it's just a matter of time. Headers are meant for race type applications where you're going to be wrenching after every few hours of run time to tighten things up. They absolutely suck for an engine you just want to drive. As tats said, our stock pre1980 manifolds flow as good or better than any AMC headers currently on the market anyways. The only way I'd buy another set of headers is if manifolds became unavailable.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
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ShagWagon
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by ShagWagon »

I understand Bill helps everyone out and has for years. That's great and I would rather support the small guys like me. But This thread has been up for a few weeks and u till now nobody chimed in about Hamiltons. I researched here and other jeep forums too. Nothing on any install for a FSJ Hamilton. Just Bill helping other people fix their own catastrophes. I read binder planet till my head exploded and my eyeballs popped out. Awesome Bill go to FI guru. I searched Google. Nothing but problems and what we had to do for Hamilton's to get it to work videos and such. I went to Hamiltons website and just before I click buy it now it says no returns, no exceptions and I couldn't find any warranty. Maybe if I lived closer I would just drop by Hamiltons but I don't.
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.

FSJ Guy
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by FSJ Guy »

The FI Tech system looks nice. Make sure you get the right one. It looks like one allows computer tuning and another version ONLY allows tuning from their own controller. May not be a big deal, but a difference none the less.
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http://www.bigscaryjeep.com

Jeepless, but I still have a lots of old parts in my garage!
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Bill usn-1
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by Bill usn-1 »

ShagWagon wrote:I understand Bill helps everyone out and has for years. That's great and I would rather support the small guys like me. But This thread has been up for a few weeks and u till now nobody chimed in about Hamiltons. I researched here and other jeep forums too. Nothing on any install for a FSJ Hamilton. Just Bill helping other people fix their own catastrophes. I read binder planet till my head exploded and my eyeballs popped out. Awesome Bill go to FI guru. I searched Google. Nothing but problems and what we had to do for Hamilton's to get it to work videos and such. I went to Hamiltons website and just before I click buy it now it says no returns, no exceptions and I couldn't find any warranty. Maybe if I lived closer I would just drop by Hamiltons but I don't.
I found some you tube videos of a customer that posted them before calling me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcqXWGtuoFw
Those on here will recognize the issues. The installation manual includes the initial setup procedures that were not performed yet. As he stated in the video, he just installed the night before and fired it up.
The squeal is caused from the throttle blade angle and the IAC not being set correctly.
Also note a vacuum line connected to the front of the throttle body. No where in the manual does it say to connect anything to the front of the throttle body. So where is the MAP sensor supposed to be connected? How can the system properly control the fueling if the sensors are not connected correctly?

As for the base plate video, common sense needs to prevail here.
You can see the plate is a CNC machined 1/2" alum plate. CNC is a computer controlled machining process that is precise down to a .001/thousandth of an inch. Note the plate had been installed and removed and shows nicks and gouges. Not a new machined surface.
You can't simply bend or warp the plate unless it was improperly installed and the TBI bolts were improperly installed so they protruded thru the bottom of the plate and drove them into the manifold, forcing the plate up.

I understand you are not familiar with TBI installation and while these may look like HFI kit issues, they were all resolved and were simply installation errors. 99% of all injection issues are installation errors. Just ask all the DIY guys on here. The system is defaulted to run.
My manual is 30pgs with color pics and my number on every page.
I can only do so much, so my number is there to take care of the rest of the issues.

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ShagWagon
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by ShagWagon »

I didn't really want to say anything at all, but I did because I thought it could help with some perspective rather than silence. I'm only blunt so that it was clear.

If that makes sense....
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.
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Bill usn-1
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by Bill usn-1 »

I just like to clarify so everyone gets facts and not misconceptions.
There is a lot of bad info spread around the net from many that have little to no experience with EFI.
Using my DIY info and installing one system does not make someone an expert.

You perceived the videos as an example of problems with my system since the person posting never provides follow up.
If you would like a list of every part I sent to him based on his analysis I will provide it. But the parts were not the issue. It's sometimes quicker/easier to just send a new part then to walk them thru the procedures.

I find with anything posted on the web, people do not post to say thank you, they only post when they have a complaint.
It doesn't matter what the product or service is.
If you buy something and it works as advertised then your good and nothing is said. If something doesn't go as planned for any reason, then it's posted all over the web whether it was a personal error or not.
I have installed or worked on most all after market systems available. So I do not just post to sell mine.
If that was true I wouldn't provide the free info on how to DIY with junkyard parts.
If someone has a hotrod with a big cam, I won't sell him a system.
I'm trying to keep the classics on the road. If they run good then there's no need to put a SBC or LS in them.
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Narrowed it down

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt ~Abraham Lincoln
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation
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