MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

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Dr. Marneaus
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MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Postby Dr. Marneaus » Tue May 24, 2016 9:04 am

Well, I might as well get this thread started since I intend to move forward at a fairly quick pace. I traded off my spare wagoneer for a full MSD Atomic setup with an in tank pump.

For the time being, the ignition will remain duraspark. Once the system is in and running, I'll likely go with an MSD dist and 6A control box so that the whole setup will communicate and control timing.

Image

So. The first order of business is getting this in-tank pump figgered. I didnt want to trash my 1973 tank so I picked up a 1978 tank and filler neck. sucks that I'll be going to the narrow fill tube, but it is what it is. Also this will let me use the stock sending unit too. The 78 tank I picked up is clean as a whistle inside, so I'll just have to cap off the vent lines and the rollover line (fuel pump mounting flange provides for a vent line with a little included rollover valve).

I need to cut a 4.5" hole for the pump setup, but I need a total of 6" (more or less) clearance for the mounting flange. The location for the stock pickup is about 6" wide, but only about 4.5" deep so I am going to need to massage the metal a bit. I attempted to remove the lock ring retainer from the tank so i could relocate my 4.5" hole a little further towards the front of the tank (but still clear the interior baffle)

This was the ideal location but the lock ring retainer is under the flange and it will not work. I had to shift the flange forward.
Image

Image

as you can see, I'm going to have to massage a few parts of the tank to get that extra clearance all around. I'm going to cut the hole tonight and begin banging on the metal (the tank will be filled with water, yeah yeah "thats not safe" I know... i'm aware of the dangers of tanks and fumes and sparks, etc).

Image

So, if I screw this up (which I will) i'll maybe go with a bronco tank.

Once the tank is prepped, I'll be able to drop my tank, and I already have -6AN braided hose running from my tank, to a filter, to an electric pump, then up to the carb through another filter in the engine bay. I will likely be able to place the new AN fitting 40 micron filter in the same location as the one I have now (back near the tank). I can then install the regulator/gauge/return line unit right up on the firewall where I currently have a filter installed in the braided fuel line about a foot away from the carb/future EFI unit. So, the cool/good news is that the supply line is already mostly run/plumbed.

Hopefully I can get this tank modded correctly and it'll bolt right up where my current tank is, then connect to everything just fine.

I'll need to figure out where to run the vent line from the tank. Perhaps i can just tie it into my original little check valve that's located in the rear fender via hard nylon lines, and keep my stock charcoal canister? But I was hoping to delete that thing from under the hood.

Anyway....stay tuned.
Last edited by Dr. Marneaus on Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.

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babywag
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby babywag » Tue May 24, 2016 10:34 am

You should be able to do timing control with just stock Duraspark.
The MSD distributor uses the exact same style magnetic pickup.
Just need to lockout the mechanical and vacuum advance mechanisms.
Would need to do same with a MSD distributor as well.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Dr. Marneaus
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Dr. Marneaus » Tue May 24, 2016 10:48 am

babywag wrote:You should be able to do timing control with just stock Duraspark.
The MSD distributor uses the exact same style magnetic pickup.
Just need to lockout the mechanical and vacuum advance mechanisms.
Would need to do same with a MSD distributor as well.


the MSD atomic, to the best of my knowledge, requires an MSD style box to utilize timing control. So, maybe the stock dist would work modified in the same way that nightglide modified his, but an external box would still be required....from what i understand.

Keeping the stock dist modified for lockout and phasing (unless the msd adjustable rotors will fit the stock duraspark dist?) would save a few hundred bucks though.
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby babywag » Tue May 24, 2016 10:56 am

You can adjust the Duraspark distributor for proper operation with timing control.

However if they require an MSD specific ignition control for true timing control that is just LAME. Pure greed there!
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Dr. Marneaus » Tue May 24, 2016 11:06 am

babywag wrote:You can adjust the Duraspark distributor for proper operation with timing control.

However if they require an MSD specific ignition control for true timing control that is just LAME. Pure greed there!


Not specifically MSD, but an "equivalent" system. I believe it would work hooked to a summit knock off system.

I was talking to nightglide about it and from his knowledge Fitech was the only system out there that was "boxless" and that the EFI unit itself is fully capable of timing control.

either way, I'm not gonna complain if I gotta spend an extra few bills on this kit.....reviews are great and the price (for what i already have) was right!
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby babywag » Tue May 24, 2016 11:48 am

Dr. Marneaus wrote:
babywag wrote:You can adjust the Duraspark distributor for proper operation with timing control.

However if they require an MSD specific ignition control for true timing control that is just LAME. Pure greed there!


Not specifically MSD, but an "equivalent" system. I believe it would work hooked to a summit knock off system.

I was talking to nightglide about it and from his knowledge Fitech was the only system out there that was "boxless" and that the EFI unit itself is fully capable of timing control.

either way, I'm not gonna complain if I gotta spend an extra few bills on this kit.....reviews are great and the price (for what i already have) was right!


Just sayin' for $2k and you gotta spend more $ for timing control = sad. You got a good deal and spending a little isn't a big deal.
Had you shelled out $2k, I'd venture you would have a different opinion.
It would have been very easy and cheap for MSD to add the electronics to the system.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Stuka » Tue May 24, 2016 12:05 pm

babywag wrote:
Dr. Marneaus wrote:
babywag wrote:You can adjust the Duraspark distributor for proper operation with timing control.

However if they require an MSD specific ignition control for true timing control that is just LAME. Pure greed there!


Not specifically MSD, but an "equivalent" system. I believe it would work hooked to a summit knock off system.

I was talking to nightglide about it and from his knowledge Fitech was the only system out there that was "boxless" and that the EFI unit itself is fully capable of timing control.

either way, I'm not gonna complain if I gotta spend an extra few bills on this kit.....reviews are great and the price (for what i already have) was right!


Just sayin' for $2k and you gotta spend more $ for timing control = sad. You got a good deal and spending a little isn't a big deal.
Had you shelled out $2k, I'd venture you would have a different opinion.
It would have been very easy and cheap for MSD to add the electronics to the system.


I guess I look at it this way. Who spends 2K on an ignition, but wants to reuse old parts and a 40 year old distributer design? The stock duraspark box does allow for some timing control, its not something you can get all information that you would want for a fully self learning EFI system like the atomic.
1981 J10 AMC 258 with HEI and Weber 32/36 DGEV Carb, T176, NP208, D44/M23 with 4.56 gears and Detroit Locker, 6" lift, 33x12.50 Cooper STT's, BJ's Offroad Rear Dozer Bumper.
2017 JKU Rubicon Stock
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby babywag » Tue May 24, 2016 12:36 pm

So what new distributor design do you suggest lol

An MSD distributor uses a virtually identical setup as a Duraspark.
Or maybe one of a dozen HEI models based on GM's and modify it...

My point isn't the distributor it is the lack of electronics of the system.

Far as who spends $ and uses old Duraspark for timing control? I can think of quite a few individuals.
They all have good results, myself included...

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=9930&p=116442#p116442
Dr. Marneaus wrote:We got his locked out duraspark with an adjustable reluctor trigger installed over the weekend and apparently the truck is running really well now that fitech is controlling timing.
13260201_10100956203028498_3186403105435886998_n.jpg
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Dr. Marneaus
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Dr. Marneaus » Tue May 24, 2016 1:13 pm

Lol we can discuss the support (or lack thereof) all day long as well as the price and expected value etc. If I had already spent a few grand chances are good that I would have spent the extra cash for the supporting parts as well because I had already spent a ton. I'm a big proponent of but once cry once.

Either way we will see where I end up in regard to the ignition.

First....I gotta mod me a gas tank.

Somebody was mentioning that they have yet to see a successfully modified factory tank that allowed people to get all or most of the gas out. He was saying that I'll likely be stuck with 5 gallons left in the tank. I don't really see how that's possible given the fact that the tray and the pickup line/filter will literally be sitting on the bottom of the tank so it should, by that reasoning, work as good or better than the stock pickup?

Once I have the pump installed I intend to toss a can of gas into it then pump it all out and see how much is left. That'll give me a lot of useful info!
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby babywag » Tue May 24, 2016 1:50 pm

My '88 will suck the tank darn near dry. Holds just over 20 gallons, and last time I ran out (someone siphoned my tank while I was on vacation) it took over 19 gallons to fill it.

The pickup is ~1/8" off the bottom of tank. However this is with a factory style ~'90 GM truck TBI pump.

So depending on what you have to work with I would say 5 gallons left is unrealistic. @ least IMHO.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Dr. Marneaus » Tue May 24, 2016 2:31 pm

babywag wrote:My '88 will suck the tank darn near dry. Holds just over 20 gallons, and last time I ran out (someone siphoned my tank while I was on vacation) it took over 19 gallons to fill it.

The pickup is ~1/8" off the bottom of tank. However this is with a factory style ~'90 GM truck TBI pump.

So depending on what you have to work with I would say 5 gallons left is unrealistic. @ least IMHO.


This is what I'll be running, the vertical portion gets cut to length so the tray will literally be touching the bottom of the deep portion of the gas tank, I see no reason why it wouldn't suck damn near all of it out, maybe leave at most like half an inch of gas in the bottom?

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ ... /prd84.htm
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby FSJ Guy » Tue May 24, 2016 3:24 pm

I agree with Tony. I suspect you can use your OEM Duraspark distributor. It will hook up directly to an MSD 6 series box. If your EFI uses the signal from the MSD, you can simply lock out the mechanical advance on your stock distributor (just leave the vacuum advance hose unplugged) and you will have electronic timing control. No need for an MSD distributor. :- )

That fuel pump looks nice! $$$, but nice!
Ethan Brady

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1987 Grand Wagoneer. Slightly longer than stock.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Stuka » Tue May 24, 2016 4:38 pm

The tank in my '75 always ended up with fuel that never got sucked up. The tank was very long, and the pickup is towards the rear. Going down just slight hill, I could run out with several gallons in the tank. The 80+ tanks are much shorter, so they don't seem to have the issue.
1981 J10 AMC 258 with HEI and Weber 32/36 DGEV Carb, T176, NP208, D44/M23 with 4.56 gears and Detroit Locker, 6" lift, 33x12.50 Cooper STT's, BJ's Offroad Rear Dozer Bumper.
2017 JKU Rubicon Stock
Pevious Jeeps: 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby babywag » Tue May 24, 2016 5:16 pm

Dr. Marneaus wrote:This is what I'll be running, the vertical portion gets cut to length so the tray will literally be touching the bottom of the deep portion of the gas tank, I see no reason why it wouldn't suck damn near all of it out, maybe leave at most like half an inch of gas in the bottom?

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ ... /prd84.htm


Yeah, that'll work well the little box @ bottom will hold some fuel around the pump pickup.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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Dr. Marneaus
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Dr. Marneaus » Tue May 24, 2016 10:01 pm

Step one is mostly complete. 4.5" hole cut into the tank. Then I hammered down the raised parts to get the mounting flange to sit flush. Need to do some final massaging and smooth out the cut but most of it is done.

Image
Image
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Nikkormat » Wed May 25, 2016 2:20 pm

First, what the heck is this adjustable rotor phasing flim-flam all about? It never came up doing mine and it runs great. And I can't find it in bills write up. Heck I drove like 300 miles before I even locked out the mechanical advance!

Second, It's been my experience that without modifications I can suck all 22 gallons out of the stock 74 tank. The biggest advantage to having an in tank pump is the noise reduction. I hate the whine of my E2000, when I do EFI on the 91 I plan to go with a Blazer aux tank and an in tank pump like Andrew's setup.

And if you have some pictures of the 78 filler neck installed, I'd absolutely love to see them. Will the 78 tank work with the early skid plate? I'm dying to see how this turns out. If I could swap to the later style tank and filler neck I'd be one happy camper.
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Dr. Marneaus
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Dr. Marneaus » Wed May 25, 2016 3:17 pm

well the 78 filler neck sucks, its the narrow skinny one. Our easlier style ones are a nice big free flowing pipe.

I dont have it installed in my truck yet, but here's a cut-away pic from one of the wags being parted out at my buddys house. It all fits but the hole in the lower body MAY need to be widened a bit to fit the two lines on the filler neck.

Image
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.

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Nikkormat
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Nikkormat » Wed May 25, 2016 4:29 pm

My 74 has the big tube and it fills so so slowly and you can't let go of the nozzle, it has to be held at a funny angle.
Now this ol' Jeep needs a coat a' paint
But she makes up for what I ain't

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby nightglide » Wed May 25, 2016 4:36 pm

you are supposed to phase your rotor when locking out your vac and mech advance. Bill has a lot of write ups over on binder planet
77 J10 360/T18/Dana20
Fitech fuel injection
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Step 1 - Modifying stock tank for in-tank pump

Postby Nikkormat » Wed May 25, 2016 4:47 pm

Right, but what is the adjustment for the position of the reluctor? Bills set screw?
Now this ol' Jeep needs a coat a' paint
But she makes up for what I ain't


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