MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

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Stuka
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Stuka »

Are there any firmware updates for it?
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Dr. Marneaus
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Dr. Marneaus »

Stuka wrote:Are there any firmware updates for it?
I believe it is up to date
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by babywag »

Just spitballing here, since this has been beat to death...
Have you ever watched/monitored the voltage when this occurs?
EFI is sensitive to voltage swings. An increase or decrease in voltage changes everything.
All sensor outputs, injector output, etc.

*IF* you had/have a momentary or temporary voltage swing, it could cause issues.
For example a low voltage would decrease sensor output readings, and injector output.
Opposite for increase.

I suggest it only because I have seen it, and it is something that hasn’t been mentioned yet.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Dr. Marneaus »

babywag wrote:Just spitballing here, since this has been beat to death...
Have you ever watched/monitored the voltage when this occurs?
EFI is sensitive to voltage swings. An increase or decrease in voltage changes everything.
All sensor outputs, injector output, etc.

*IF* you had/have a momentary or temporary voltage swing, it could cause issues.
For example a low voltage would decrease sensor output readings, and injector output.
Opposite for increase.

I suggest it only because I have seen it, and it is something that hasn’t been mentioned yet.
How much of a swing? My voltage moves around a lil bit regardless (maybe from 13.7-14.0 reading out on the display).

That being said, I believe this happened before the current alternator was installed.

Also, since powermaster is a company of liars, this was NOT a direct bolt in, i had to modify my bracket, and i can never get the belt tight enough, it stretches and needs replaced every 6 months. When it needs replaced, the truck will drop to about 12..7 or 12.5 volts even when driving because the belt is slipping, and that has zero impact on how it runs. I've driven it 100 miles at voltages like that, and never had any issue aside from when it starts up.
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Dr. Marneaus »

Also, guess what company hasnt responded to me in over a week now?

Thanks, MSD. $2500 worth of their BEEP and they wont even get back to me.
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by babywag »

It would be a momentary deal, so say it’s normal to see 14.6v...a momentary change.

A guy brought over a Howell equipped system.
(I know not same).
He was having drive ability issue after hot restart. It was running lean, popping through throttle body. Only intermittent couldn’t nail it down.
So I told him bring it by. Logged data and luckily was able to “see” issue.
Right when issue occurred a voltage drop to 11.x, again only momentarily.
Rewired his ignition feed and changed his ground direct to engine vs. battery.
No more issue for him.

I’ve also seen similar on OEM systems.
Loose pins in connectors, broken wires(internal hiding beneath insulation that looked ok), etc.
The wiggle test while running will usually recreate an issue w/ bad connector or damaged wire.

Could also be bad trace/solder joint of ecm.

We’ve kinda beaten this death...
Intermittent problems suck to find!!
I wish you were closer...
-Tony
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Dr. Marneaus »

babywag wrote:It would be a momentary deal, so say it’s normal to see 14.6v...a momentary change.

A guy brought over a Howell equipped system.
(I know not same).
He was having drive ability issue after hot restart. It was running lean, popping through throttle body. Only intermittent couldn’t nail it down.
So I told him bring it by. Logged data and luckily was able to “see” issue.
Right when issue occurred a voltage drop to 11.x, again only momentarily.
Rewired his ignition feed and changed his ground direct to engine vs. battery.
No more issue for him.

I’ve also seen similar on OEM systems.
Loose pins in connectors, broken wires(internal hiding beneath insulation that looked ok), etc.
The wiggle test while running will usually recreate an issue w/ bad connector or damaged wire.

Could also be bad trace/solder joint of ecm.

We’ve kinda beaten this death...
Intermittent problems suck to find!!
I wish you were closer...
It absolutely could be an issue like that. I'm not sure where to look though.

Remember how I had to solder up a little diode to provide hot to the computer when the key is in the "start" position because 1973 is like the one year that does not have a single wire that is constant 12v?
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Stuka »

You would almost need to hook a scope up to it that tracked highs and lows, and then replicated the issue. Transients can be tough to find and your average digital volt meter wont even register it. An analog one would show the needle dip momentarily. You would need to monitor the voltage at the ECU though, not the alternator.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by babywag »

Or a datalog...there has to be a way to datalog the thing?
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Stuka »

Oh, yeah. if it can datalog its input voltage, that should show it.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Dr. Marneaus »

Sooooo after I had to reach back out to MSD they’re telling me, literally in as few words ‘it’s your HEI’

Apparently HEI’s put out a weak tach signal and that’s MAYBE what’s causing my issue.

So I can run an MSD 6A type box...or something. We’ll see if I act on this. If I’m changing up my ignition and spending money I’m going to get t set up for timing control which I do not think is possible with a standard HEI distributor so that will need replacing as well.
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by az chip »

If going for timing I think the easiest and cheapest way to go is with the MSD, Duraspark distributor and locking out the advance.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

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az chip wrote:If going for timing I think the easiest and cheapest way to go is with the MSD, Duraspark distributor and locking out the advance.
Yeah I helped Nightglide with the install of the duraspark dizzy he locked out, so I’ve seen it done. I still have my spare duraspark dizzy from before the HEI
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Stuka »

I have actually heard about the HEI having a weak tach signal from other people before.

And actually after a quick search, Edelbrock actually says to NOT use an HEI with their system, and instead use an adapter:
Source Three Pin B - DESIGNATED HALL TYPE TACH SIGNAL OR TACH ADAPTERS.
The Tach output pin on HEI Distributors and some other ignition systems tach sources
are very dirty and cannot provide a clean tach signal to the ECU. In these situations a
replacement HEI Module MSD part #83647 or tach adapter with Hall type output signal is
recommended. The Hall type Signal output from either of these sources would connect to
Pin B on the tach input connector. On MSD distributors this is usually a grey wire and is
provided on some ready run distributors also. DO NOT CONNECT TACH PIN ON HEI TO
PIN B, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by babywag »

Dr. Marneaus wrote:Sooooo after I had to reach back out to MSD they’re telling me, literally in as few words ‘it’s your HEI’

Apparently HEI’s put out a weak tach signal and that’s MAYBE what’s causing my issue.

So I can run an MSD 6A type box...or something. We’ll see if I act on this. If I’m changing up my ignition and spending money I’m going to get t set up for timing control which I do not think is possible with a standard HEI distributor so that will need replacing as well.
Interesting...
I've never liked the GM style HEI distributors, a fluctuating/poor tach signal to ECM would DEFINITELY be an issue!
A datalog would show this as well...

I vote for a locked out duraspark if you swap. Cheap and reliable, readily available parts if needed etc.
MSD distributor is pretty, but it uses the exact same pickup as a duraspark, and is $$$, uses proprietary replacement pickup.
But, if still available bkilby is selling an MSD distributor for $175
-Tony
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by nightglide »

I still have my locked out duraspark you can try if ya want...........
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

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babywag wrote: But, if still available bkilby is selling an MSD distributor for $175
Who now and where?
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by babywag »

Dr. Marneaus wrote:
babywag wrote: But, if still available bkilby is selling an MSD distributor for $175
Who now and where?
over on ifsja in 4 sale forum
-Tony
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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by Dr. Marneaus »

Okay.

I'm tired of hating my jeep, and tired of getting little to no help from MSD.

Nightglide was kind enough to offer me his home-modded, locked out, and phased duraspark dizzy. He modded it, and then we phased the reluctor about 15* and installed it on his truck with an MSD street fire ignition box, he was fighting other issues at the time and removed it thinking it was part of the problem. Turns out it was not, and it was working fine.

I will install this dizzy on my truck, and pick up the same Street Fire box as its about $100 less than a 6A or 6AL.

I will grab a streetfire coil, install the Street Fire control unit, and wire the whole shebang up for timing control.

I think this is my most minimal investment option. A coil and the Street Fire ICU will be about $190. Coupled with a locked out duraspark distributor, we "should" be in business.

The ONLY direction I have gotten from MSD is that "HEI doesn't work well with the Atomic EFI because it has a weak tach signal." I don't know what else to do at this point, so lets throw more money at it.

Here's to hoping....
Well it ain't just the smoke and the traffic jam that makes me the bitter fool I am But this four-wheel buggy is A-dollaring me to death.
For gas and oils and fluids and grease, And wires and tires and anti freeze....And them accessories, Well honey, that's something else.

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Re: MSD Atomic EFI: Tuning Tuning Tuning

Post by FSJ Guy »

I've had both a 6AL and a streetfire. They both work well with the stock distributor. And they play nice and provided a good signal for my GM TBI systems
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