Setting Expectations for TBI

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Lumpskie
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Location: New Hampshire

Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by Lumpskie »

Hey guys,
I just wanted to chime in and say I've been reading and appreciate all of your responses. Since my carb is working pretty well, it sounds like I won't get any horsepower or better gas mileage by switching to TBI. (this surprises me. I though you guys would say that I'd get 1 or 2 mpg and a small bump in HP) Currently, I fast pass emissions and can drive over the Eisenhower tunnel without any issues.

What it sounds like I would get is a system that I would better understand. I've never owned a carb'd vehicle. So, they are black magic to me. Plugging in a laptop and adjusting timing and fuel sounds like something I can learn. That being said, I don't know if it's worth a large investment right now. So, maybe start collecting parts with an eye to do the conversion some time in the next few years.

Bill: Do you offer tuning services for a NOOB? I'm thinking that I would like to try tuning it on my own then having a knowledgeable person look at the logs and tell me what I'm doing wrong.
1989 Grand Wagoneer - Rebuilt 360, 2" Alcans, 10" travel Gabriel Guadian shocks.
1996 Land Cruiser - 1HD-T Diesel, Gturbo (23psi), Wholesale Automatics 442f, F/R ARBs, 35" Duratracs, ARB Rear Bumper, OME 2" lift, home built sliders and aluminum belly skid
2000 Honda Civic - Integra GSR engine, transmission, shift linkage and axles, 200hp, 33 combined mpg
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 9 - 437hp/447ft-lb
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doug
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by doug »

will e wrote:
doug wrote:I'll be switching to TBI with a full rebuild, or a complete 5.3 transplant, and only so I can pass emissions EVERY time. Emissions testing areas aren't getting smaller, but I want to drive an FSJ, no matter where I live. Also, power valves are a product of the seventh circle of hell.
You won't pass in Maricopa county. They do a visual inspection and will check for an A.I.R. pump on a 1986 (read in your sig). An Operational A.I.R. pump will mess with the closed loop system. So you might pass tail pipe emissions with an A.I.R that is or appears to be operational but you wouldn't want to leave it on all of the time. Even if you pass tail pipe emissions you still have to pass visual.

My understanding is they will accept the Howell system if you have the CARB sticker but you need to go to the Motor Vehicle folks to get the waiver. Getting the waiver is not guaranteed.
Oh yeah, most areas have visual inspection. So much for my broad thinking. Oregon has pretty lax emissions testing. No underhood, either plug in for OBD-II or the banana in the tailpipe for earlier vehicles. I passed with no AIR system, but I had to gradually lean out my carb to do it. I'll still do TBI for an engine rebuild, with no MPG delusions.
After finding Bill's comprehensive information, and the plethora of old GM BOF vehicles turning through junkyards, converting will be a neat adventure.
"Raliegh Montebello" over on the ghost ship.
1986 Grand Wagoneer, Silver with razor grille, white steel wheels
dougmoak@gmail.com
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Lumpskie
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by Lumpskie »

^The funny thing is that I've never had anyone open the hood at my emissions station while the guys up in Aurora get searched with a fine tooth comb.
1989 Grand Wagoneer - Rebuilt 360, 2" Alcans, 10" travel Gabriel Guadian shocks.
1996 Land Cruiser - 1HD-T Diesel, Gturbo (23psi), Wholesale Automatics 442f, F/R ARBs, 35" Duratracs, ARB Rear Bumper, OME 2" lift, home built sliders and aluminum belly skid
2000 Honda Civic - Integra GSR engine, transmission, shift linkage and axles, 200hp, 33 combined mpg
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 9 - 437hp/447ft-lb

will e
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by will e »

Lumpskie wrote: So, maybe start collecting parts with an eye to do the conversion some time in the next few years.
.
That's always the best approach to have cash ready when a deal comes along. Eventually the carb is going to wear out on ya.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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243
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by 243 »

Lumpskie wrote:Hey guys,
I just wanted to chime in and say I've been reading and appreciate all of your responses. Since my carb is working pretty well, it sounds like I won't get any horsepower or better gas mileage by switching to TBI. (this surprises me. I though you guys would say that I'd get 1 or 2 mpg and a small bump in HP) Currently, I fast pass emissions and can drive over the Eisenhower tunnel without any issues.

What it sounds like I would get is a system that I would better understand. I've never owned a carb'd vehicle. So, they are black magic to me. Plugging in a laptop and adjusting timing and fuel sounds like something I can learn. That being said, I don't know if it's worth a large investment right now. So, maybe start collecting parts with an eye to do the conversion some time in the next few years.

Bill: Do you offer tuning services for a NOOB? I'm thinking that I would like to try tuning it on my own then having a knowledgeable person look at the logs and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I thought I wanted to get into tuning but ultimately decided I wanted to drive the CJ and Cherokee more than play with programming.

Bill provided the chips for my 258 and 360, both ran off the stock 4.3 and 5.7 BIN reasonably well.

I bet a properly tuned TBI will provide more power on average than a carb, that is average hp and tq from idle to redline, and definitely cleaner power.

I don't know how other tuners operate, but Bill evaluated the datalog and mailed a new chip so there was no downtime and no real wait.
1978 Cherokee NT, 5.3/4L60/NP241 in Progress
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Bill usn-1
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by Bill usn-1 »

Here's a link to all the DIY EFI info.
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/inde ... ere.47254/

Here's a link to some of the services and parts I offer. There is also my web site.
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/inde ... ce.102989/
I'm always developing new stuff for conversions so just ask.
My email is sales@hamiltonfuelinjection.com
And I even have a facebook page so there is no excuse.
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jaber
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by jaber »

Stuka wrote:Carbs are simple and can be made to work well at one altitude. But soon as the altitude changes, or the humidity changes, or temperature changes (etc) they go out of tune (no way to argue this, they cannot adjust themselves). I live in an area where I can go up 7000ft in altitude in 40 minutes of driving. And there is no way to make my truck run well at both ends with its carb. Just have not had the chance to look into putting EFI on it, because it needs it. I am sure its similar to doing it on a V8, just have not seen a writeup for 258s (They may exist, have just not seen it).
For the record, I have installed 2 howel kits onto the 258 engine and the only difference between them and my Caddilac, is that I have timing and the Howel kits did not. Everything else looks basicly the same...
The other option for the 6cyl crowd is the 4.0 head and computer... :-bd
Jeff

'46 cj3a
'51 Willys p/u
'51 Willys Parkway Conversion
'74 CJ5
'75 J-20 Wrecker
'75 J-20 Cummins service truck
'77 J-10 p/u
'79 Cherokee
'88 Grand Wagoneer
http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh14/jeffaber/
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shimniok
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by shimniok »

Hey Lumpskie, now that I've seen and heard your rig run, talked to a little about it in person... I'd leave it exactly the way it is as long as you can get away with it. Reliable, properly working Jeeps are a rare and precious thing. :D

Like they say, "If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!" --- oh wait. :D

Just get all the maintenance updated, stay on top of it, and it should be a good DD and casual wheeler for your family. Having a back up car might not be a bad idea tho :D
Broken Photobucket image in my post? PM me.
'86 GW "Troubled Child" tc.wagoneer.org
360, TBI, 4" Skyjacker, 33" BFG MTs, WT D44+ARB, WT AMC20 + LockRight, CB 2m 6m 70cm, K0FSJ
The world's first Robotic Full Size Jeep!
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Lumpskie
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by Lumpskie »

^Thanks Mike,

I think that's what I'm going to do. If/when the Waggy runs like it needs TBI, I'll invest the money at that point. Thanks, again, for the help on Friday!
1989 Grand Wagoneer - Rebuilt 360, 2" Alcans, 10" travel Gabriel Guadian shocks.
1996 Land Cruiser - 1HD-T Diesel, Gturbo (23psi), Wholesale Automatics 442f, F/R ARBs, 35" Duratracs, ARB Rear Bumper, OME 2" lift, home built sliders and aluminum belly skid
2000 Honda Civic - Integra GSR engine, transmission, shift linkage and axles, 200hp, 33 combined mpg
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 9 - 437hp/447ft-lb

willysdave
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by willysdave »

Some of us actually go 4 wheeling in our old Jeeps. Some of us don't have 20 year old carbs., we have brand new ones. I still don't like my carb. but, mine doesn't have an elec. choke, or a manual one. It stinks when I start it, have to keep the gas pedal just right to keep it running when cold. That being said, I'm not convinced the price of EFI is worth it. I'm just getting to know my carb. setup since installing an off road kit on it. My only concern is, I don't want my carb to crap out when at angles or, worse, during a steep, long hill climb. That would be my biggest reason for going to EFI. Mine is not a D.D. so, the carb. difficulties aren't a big deal to me. It just seems like most here aren't concerned at all about performance on the trail which is my major concern.
1961 Willys Wagon, high compression 383 stroker,custom exhaust, TH400 w/stage two kit, Dana 300, Currie twin stick,LoMax 4:1,D60 front, 14 bolt rear, Discs, E brakes, hydro brakes, PSC hydro assist, ARBs,38 x 14.5 x 17 MTRKs on steel, 4 link front w/ King coilovers, Autometer Phanthom Gauges,Winters shifter, buckets ,old crappy paint with some rust and dents, just the way I like it ;)

willysdave
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by willysdave »

What if your not running a stock engine? what if I have a fully built high compression v8 engine ? How does a TBI unit handle that ?
1961 Willys Wagon, high compression 383 stroker,custom exhaust, TH400 w/stage two kit, Dana 300, Currie twin stick,LoMax 4:1,D60 front, 14 bolt rear, Discs, E brakes, hydro brakes, PSC hydro assist, ARBs,38 x 14.5 x 17 MTRKs on steel, 4 link front w/ King coilovers, Autometer Phanthom Gauges,Winters shifter, buckets ,old crappy paint with some rust and dents, just the way I like it ;)

will e
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by will e »

Hey Willysdave. A TBI can handle a built high compression engine no worries.

There is a difference between TBI and EFI. Both are electric and both are fuel injection. The TBI has the injectors at the throttle body. Usually a TBI had either 2 or 4 injectors and the fuel is added to the air in the same place as where a carb would sit. This means the TBI is a 'wet manifold' design meaning both air and fuel travel through the intake manifold.

EFI 'typically' refers to a system where there a fuel injector for each cyl. It is usually placed very close to the intake valve. This means the intake manifold is a 'dry' system since the fuel is not mixed until just before the air enters the cyl.

TBI systems vary and as some of the members indicated can be done fairly inexpensive including 'junk yard' systems. EFI is a lot more expensive, usually comes as a kit and would be difficult to adapt to our engines from a 'junk yard' system.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge

willysdave
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by willysdave »

Thank you for that clarification. I run a Holley 750 h/p series and it does well but, I haven't had it in higher elevations yet, or at critical angles. I really don't want to find out the limits of my carb. climbing a steep hill. I've been there and it's no fun. I have been sizing up the different tbi kits available but, I almost would rather find my carbs. weak point then spend that kind of money. I still need a cage, decent seat belts, skids, ARBs installed so, yeah, I wish there was a cheaper solution. I'm also producing over 500 ponies and it seems to get more expensive because of that. I can see from your build that you have been where I'm headed with my build.Our builds are kind of similar.Besides parts, my wagon is 21 years older that yours .
1961 Willys Wagon, high compression 383 stroker,custom exhaust, TH400 w/stage two kit, Dana 300, Currie twin stick,LoMax 4:1,D60 front, 14 bolt rear, Discs, E brakes, hydro brakes, PSC hydro assist, ARBs,38 x 14.5 x 17 MTRKs on steel, 4 link front w/ King coilovers, Autometer Phanthom Gauges,Winters shifter, buckets ,old crappy paint with some rust and dents, just the way I like it ;)

AwesomeJ10
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by AwesomeJ10 »

I drove the amc 360 TBI honcho all around the Colorado mountains today. Performed flawless as usual.

Loving the new straight pipes with no muffler! The low end throttle response (and associated rumble) is something that I don't thing any carb could provide.
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DenverWoody
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by DenverWoody »

Lumpskie wrote:
shimniok wrote:PS: I see you're local. You're welcome to come by and drive mine and see what ya think.
^That would be awesome. I'm in the Roxborough area, west of Highlands Ranch. I'll PM you my number and we can set something up!
New to the board(s) (IFSJA, CFSJA, et al), but saw some other Coloradans and thought I'd introduce myself. I'm in Denver, have had my 1988 Grand Wagoneer for precisely 6 days:

Image

Being that I'm originally from Ohio and an alumnus of the current number one team in the country there was only one suitable name for him: Woody Haze.

Don't hold that against me. Anyway, going for more of a stock/ retro look than rock-crawler, but this is going to be driven as it was meant to be. First things first, carb/ engine tune to get it to start/ idle/ run a litter more consistently. Next, addressing some damage to the driver's side rear corner that I inherited. After that, refresh interior.

Would love suggestions on mechanic(s), body shops(s), upholsterers, etc. in the Denver metro area.
I'm from the Midwest and I'm here for your tacos.
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Lumpskie
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by Lumpskie »

Welcome to the boards. I'm doing a stock appearance rig too. I'm taking mine to a local body guy here in the next few weeks. I'll let you know what kind of work he does!
1989 Grand Wagoneer - Rebuilt 360, 2" Alcans, 10" travel Gabriel Guadian shocks.
1996 Land Cruiser - 1HD-T Diesel, Gturbo (23psi), Wholesale Automatics 442f, F/R ARBs, 35" Duratracs, ARB Rear Bumper, OME 2" lift, home built sliders and aluminum belly skid
2000 Honda Civic - Integra GSR engine, transmission, shift linkage and axles, 200hp, 33 combined mpg
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 9 - 437hp/447ft-lb
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Jeff from Iowa
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Re: Setting Expectations for TBI

Post by Jeff from Iowa »

Bill usn-1 wrote:LOL
You guys will go to no lengths to defend a carb. :-)
It amazes me sometimes the things I see posted on the web.

I just feel bad for the guys that don't know any better and are actually looking for helpful information.
But it gives me plenty more talking points to add to my seminars!

There is so much incorrect information on both sides in this thread its mind boggling.
90 Fsj. 5.3, 4l65,241. 4" lift, Custom valved Bilstien 5125 Shocks, Dakota Digital Dash, Bjs Radiator, Bjs aluminum tank,Viper remote start, power door locks, one touch rear window. Ac, Cruise, tow haul all work as they should. Fully restored oem wheels.
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