Distributor for gm tbi

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FSJ Guy
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby FSJ Guy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:51 pm

Use your stock distributor. The pickup that triggers the duraspark modue will also trigger the GM module.

Use the wiring diagram you posted with the ignition module shown. The ignition module (MUST use a hearsink!!) will give you timing control as well. No need for expensive "HEI" distributors.

Just lock your factory distributor with a quick weld.

See my website for details. Look in the TBI section, IIRC.
Ethan Brady

http://www.bigscaryjeep.com

Jeepless, but I still have a lots of old parts in my garage!

FSJ Guy
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby FSJ Guy » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:33 pm

Sounds like the alignment is off somehow on the distributor.

Are you using the factory timing chain cover or is it a repro? Supposedly some repros were not lined up well. Was there oil on the shredded dizzy gears? I'm wondering if the oiling channel was blocked.

Did you replace the timing chain set when you had the cover off the last time?
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babywag
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby babywag » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:05 pm

I’d be looking @ timing gear oil slot since it’s fresh timing set.
Very common for it be in wrong place or not go all way through.
Deprives gears of oil unless checked/corrected.
Distributor & cam gear chewage probably due to that?

Also move the CTS from tstat housing to intake, very little flow until warmed up there. Engine temp will be out if sync. until tstat opens where you have it.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

FSJ Guy
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby FSJ Guy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:19 pm

X2 what he said!
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babywag
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby babywag » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:52 am

Yes, the springs should hold it.
On distributor gear, if it doesn’t fit properly don’t use it.
You’re already tearing it down to replace them, why risk having to do it all over again?
If they cannot get a hole drilled properly I suspect QC is lacking on actual gear(s) as well.

Get a good used OEM set, or maybe MSD set. Personally I have always used originals and never had a failure/problem. Even mixing ones from different engines. Searching you will find many folks that have had problems with new gears or aftermarket distributors.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

FSJ Guy
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby FSJ Guy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:10 pm

You don't have to be an expert welder. I just zap it enough to put a bead down to hold it in place. I do it on both (opposite) sides with the idea that it is better balanced that way.
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Jeepless, but I still have a lots of old parts in my garage!

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babywag
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby babywag » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:24 pm

That looks BONE dry, should be oil all over everything.
I’d venture a guess cam sprocket slot is misaligned or not allowing oil all way through.
Lack of oil to gears = massive chewage.

With that amount of metal shavings I’d be @ minimum dropping pan and removing pickup for cleaning.
That is a LOT of metal!
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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babywag
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby babywag » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:15 pm

Oil comes from cam timing gear, there is a slot to allow oil out to lube everything.
Been an issue for many years that aftermarket doesn’t machine properly.
When gear slot is wrong, you see the result.
Need to remove the timing set and check/fix the oil slot.

sc/397 has good info on ifsja.org
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=183822
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

letank
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby letank » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:31 pm

the oil transfer slot has to be aligned with the one on the cam

Image

so do as pictured, and if off, file a new hole in your timing gear

let me come back and find another pict, below is aftermarket, check the shape of the groove

Image

and this is almost OEM, probably...

Image

still missing the pict of interest... the original post used photobucket... so it is gone... but I have it somewhere

not this but it gives an idea

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12192

Image

Found it, the image is skewed, but this pict shows the offset of the hole

Image

and this one the way to open up the gear to get the oiling channel opened

Image

and the other side, as shown different mods of manufacturer not understanding the problem have added more slots, the OEM has no slots, a bit of a chamfren, it is the bottom one, you can see the chunks of the plastic cover/caps that are still present on the cogs, it was on the earlier set of timing gears

Image

I do not have a pict of the front of the cam
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (226 Kmiles... the running test lab)
See Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work

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dodgerammit
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby dodgerammit » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:29 pm

You're fine. This is very useful for an AMC noob like me. Pics explain so much. I know about the importance of lining up these items, but pics show exactly what should be happening.

If nothing else, your grief is helping me understand fully what to look for when it comes time for my 360 build.

Hopefully, not for a few years.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with tan interior) AMC 360/727/229 TFI conversion, MSD streetfire ignition, D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj:

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toothofwar
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby toothofwar » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:15 pm

So, update on the pumpkin . I got the new cam and dizzy gears in, filed the oil passage, and re-installed the timing set. Got everything put together and it won't start. Had to turn it to over 35 degrees advanced just to get it to fire and then it was backfiring so bad it blew out the gasket under the throttle body. So I reset to tdc and pulled the distributor out, fully expecting to see another shredded gear. To my surprise they still looked new and the best part, they was dripping with oil!! So a small good note is I think I fixed the oiling issue! But the huge bad note is that I am almost certain that my timing set got a tooth or two off when I placed them on.
. So looks like I'll be ordering gasket number 4 and disassembling the timing cover yet again to check my timing. Unless there is something you guys think of that could be causing that much backfiring (enough to catch the tbi on fire a time or two.) Again, thanks so much for all the advice and guiding me along!

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babywag
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby babywag » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:37 pm

You would have to work really hard to get the timing set a tooth off...they're keyed, kinda only go on one way.
Far as the advancing it 35* just to start/run, sounds like the distributor is a tooth off? Or you're 180* off from TDC when stabbing it in?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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toothofwar
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby toothofwar » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:34 pm

Last night I pulled the dizzy and checked position and placement. Everything looked right. I placed it back in and checked that is was in line. I had also made for sure I was on my compression stroke before I stabbed it in. Still not starting. Got good fuel pressure, air and spark. Idk.....

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babywag
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby babywag » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:50 pm

didn’t reverse the distributor pickup wires by chance?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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toothofwar
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby toothofwar » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:28 pm

Haven't messed with the wiring this go around.

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toothofwar
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby toothofwar » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:45 am

So yesterday I finally got over my mad spell with the pumpkin. I set out determined to get this thing running. So first thing I checked was the distributor. I was in fact a tooth off. So I reset that. Still no dice. So I got to thinking back on a topic heavymetalthunder had touched on. When I made one good distributed out of 3, I marked the cog only on the cog I was going to use. I ended up using a different shaft to lock out. I didn't mark the cog off of the shaft I was going to use. So I pulled the dizzy again and pulled the cog. Moved it to the second location and put the retaining pin back in. Reassembled everything again. This time it fired. Set timing to 0tdc and reset ecm. When I fired back up, it ran beautifully for about 45 seconds. Then it was like a light switch was flipped. It backfired through the Tbi and died with an impressive little fire on the manifold. This is where I started banging my head on the wall. I was saving the o2 sensors install until I could limp it to the local muffler shop and have the whole exhaust done. But I figured now I needed to get it in. So I drilled me a hole, chopped and shaped a spark plug fouler and welded it in. It ain't pretty, but it was in. Reset ecm and tried it again. No change. Runs for a minute and then dies. So I start thinking wild here and decide to try it with the vacume advanced hooked up. With this set up I could at least keep it running longer than 30 seconds but still sounded like crap and after the 30 second initial start is have to keep my foot on the gas to keep it running. So here is my list of things that would help me out a lot.

1) I can't keep a carb gasket under the 2 to 4bbl adapter. I've put 3 new ones in it and they blow out the first backfire. Amy suggestions?

2) I can't get my scan tool to connect to my ecm. What tool and software does everyone use? If like to data log and fix my issues. I think my tables are seriously jacked up.

3) is my vacume advanced needed? If so, do I set to 0tdc with it unhooked then hook it up? Or do I leave it hooked up and set to 0?

I know this during this project I have bugged the crap out of all of y'all and I still can't seam to get it right. Thanks for being so patient with me and all the good advice!

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babywag
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby babywag » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:36 am

Not real sure what you're referring to on 2-4bbl adapter? But a normal gasket should not blow out, even with a backfire.

Gonna have to be more specific with regard to scantool, TBI is OLD school, OBDI, a scantool is fairly useless as a tool.
Most people use USB data cables, and TunerPro, or TunerCAT, some even still use WINALDL.
Somewhat recently ALDLDROID came onto the scene, for use on android devices, and there is bluetooth and regular data cables.

Vacuum advance is NOT needed, and should NOT be used with timing control enabled in .bin!
It should be locked out just like mechanical advance for timing control enabled systems.

Need to start with the basics.
Verify no vacuum leaks are present. Verify you have good fuel pressure.
What is the initial timing setting in the .bin? This is what yours should be set to.
You also need to do an initial setup of the throttle body.
Bill has a good write-up...
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/inde ... ost-345737

Some systems/engines are picky, and while everyone likes to just slap things on and turn the key, there is a 'bit more to it.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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toothofwar
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby toothofwar » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:24 am

You will have to excuse me, as I am completely new to this whole type of setup. I have a device that plugs into my obd1 port and has a usb on the end. I have downloaded tuner pro rt and have the bin, adx and the ads files downloaded and installed to tuner pro. The problem is I can't get tuner pro to connect to my device or my ecm. I have a 6299 ecm. I would be glad to change to a more user friendly ecm if I know what will interchange with my hardware. I have another complete setup I pulled off of a 94 chevy 1500. I can't remember the ecm number on it but it has a 16 pin and a 12 pin connector. Mine has the two 12 pin connectors. I have new pins so I could re pin the connector into my wiring, but I would have to find the wiring pin-out for both. Then I would still be lost on a program. I'm so lost right now...... I took a perfectly decent running jeep and made it a yard ornament. If some one has a link to the tuner device/ programmer for an obd1 ecm I would almost ship out some of Kentucky's best bourbon. I'll take some pictures of what I have tonight and post them here. Again, thanks for being so patient with me, I'm in WAY over my head here.

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babywag
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby babywag » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:24 am

All I can tell you is TunerPro needs to be configured to use the correct com port that the usb device is using.

The 6299 is poorly supported, but it should work w/ proper setup & chip installed.
A 1227747 ecm is a direct swap, but again needs a good .bin/chip to run correctly. I do not believe the 6299 chip/.bin works w/ them.

A '94 would be the newer 8192 baud pcm, and requires some wiring modifications.
Would also need a modified .bin to run properly.

I'd suggest doing the initial setup, and see if you can get it running w/ what you've got installed now.
Throwing more(different) parts @ it, may simply result in the same issue, and potentially more frustration.

Specifically what system did you buy/install again? Has it ever run correctly barring the cam/distributor gear issue(s)?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag) '90 GW (aka JunkBucket) both fuel injected.

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toothofwar
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Re: Distributor for gm tbi

Postby toothofwar » Tue May 01, 2018 10:00 am

So after talking with Bill from Hamilton FI, I have discovered I have a lot left to learn about fuel injection. There is a proper set up that has to be done to get the necessary base line. My reluctor is out of phase, my tps is not set..... the list is pretty long. These 14 hours days make it impossible to work on it, but Friday I would be able to fly in on it again. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress once I do the basics.

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