Small lift, big flex?

Lumpskie · Post by **Lumpskie** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:09 pm

Hey you guys,

So, I'm interested in lifting my '89 GW just a couple of inches. That being said, I'd like gain some decent suspension travel while I'm at it. I've been researching the possibility of the shackle flip in the rear. I've read about that helping people with travel.

So, are there any other relatively easy ideas like that which would help the suspension flex?

Also, how do these solutions affect lift over stock? (I've read about the shackle lift giving anywhere from 1.5" to 2.5" of lift)

Long story short, I'm going to order new springs for my rig and I want it to sit level when I'm done.

Thanks, as usual, for the help

Post by **Stuka** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:21 pm

A shackle flip is going to give you more lift than you want I think.

There are plenty of spring characteristics that change how much travel you have. Shocks also have an impact on it, plus tire size. Larger tires means lower bump stops to prevent the tire from rubbing.

Waggy springs flex pretty well, but you are not going to get the same travel that a coil setup would give. Mostly because coils allow for a lot more droop.

As for shackle lifts, personally I am against them with the exception of slightly longer front shackles to prevent them from inverting. A longer front shackle can cause poor caster angle, and make the front end feel more unstable as they allow the axle to move side to side more. And to get 2.5" of lift from shackles, the shackle has to be 5 inches longer than stock. Which is VERY dangerous.

What are your goals?

Lumpskie · Post by **Lumpskie** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:44 pm

Hey Stuka,

Thanks for the quick reply!
My goal is to turn the waggy into the family road trip/camping vehicle. I'd like to be able to take it down colorado back roads without worrying too much about getting in over my head. (I'm thinking "blue" trail level of difficulty like the trails you'd see in the Ouray area) I don't want to rock crawl it, but I'd like the suspension to move really freely and would like to get a little more clearance than stock. (hence my 2" of lift number, Also, I'll size shocks to match the travel numbers) I'm going to stick with a 30" tire as well. What I picture is a vehicle that looks pretty much stock, but can handle heavy ruts and smaller (12") rocks. Overall, I'd just upgrade my suspension once without wishing that I had done something "while I was in there".

From what I read, it seemed like the shackle flip would net about 2" of lift on stock shackles and springs. That's why I was considering getting 2" lift springs in front and stock height rear springs with the flip. Do you think i should just stick with some 2" Alcans? (or similar)

Here's a trip I took in the Taco that I'd like to take in the Wagoneer:
http://threeg4runners.freeforums.org/sh ... t1250.html

And, just in case you're not familiar with the area, here's a run down of the "hardest" section of that route.
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=119

Post by **Stuka** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:35 pm

Well just flipping the rear shackle would give you more than 2.5", and it points your pinion to the sky. So you have to run degree shims in reverse to point the pinion back down.

Personally if it was me (And I have run three different lifts on two different FSJs) I would go with a 4" lift and 31's. It looks good and will be plenty of capability for you.

If you really want to stick with 30x9.50s, then a 2.5" lift would be fine. I really advise new springs over using your old ones with a block or shackle flip in back. New ones are stiff at first, but break in easily enough. I have seen too many old springs break when they are worked on a wash boarded road.

Lumpskie · Post by **Lumpskie** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:20 pm

Thanks for the honest input, Stuka.

I agree. I refuse to run blocks or old springs on my rigs. I want to do a job right the first time and forget about it.

Originally, I was thinking of running 2" lift Alcans in the front and stock height Alcans in the rear, but it sounds like that's not a good idea. Do you think going 2" Alcans front and rear will do the trick? I've really liked those springs on my truck and I really want to keep the wagoneer looking stock. That being said, if you think that 2 inches of lift is a waste of time and that it won't do much good, be blunt.

Thanks again for the help,

Nikkormat · Post by **Nikkormat** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:29 am

Sounds like were after the same thing. I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

will e · Post by **will e** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:38 am

I run some custom made Alcans that gave me about an inch or so of lift. I already has SOA/SF so I was not interested in adding a lot more height.

If I was you I would go a minimum for 2 or so inches of lift. Ouray trails don't require a lot of lift or flex.

Here's a pic of me flexing the Alcans.

I haven't spent any time checking to see if the shocks are limiting me.

Lumpskie · Post by **Lumpskie** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:43 am

Nikkormat: I'll keep this thread updated, as I decide which route to go. If you find any information in your search, feel free to post up here!

Will e: That's some good flex! When you did your shackle flip, how much height did you gain? Also, did you notice a significant difference in flex?

Thanks for all the info, you guys.

Post by **Stuka** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:54 am

Lumpskie wrote:Nikkormat: I'll keep this thread updated, as I decide which route to go. If you find any information in your search, feel free to post up here!

Will e: That's some good flex! When you did your shackle flip, how much height did you gain? Also, did you notice a significant difference in flex?

Thanks for all the info, you guys.

With TT's kit the shackle flip gives roughly 6.5" of lift to match the SOA up front.

There has been some debate around the web as to if a shackle in tension or a shackle in compression will allow better spring movement. I think it can provide better movement with it in compression if the shackle length and angle are set correctly. But having it in tension provides for a much more stable driving/towing platform.

Installing a lift is a decent amount of work.If it was my waggy, it would be a 4" with 31's.

Lumpskie · Post by **Lumpskie** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:19 am

^Wow, I had no idea that just the flip would give that much lift. Maybe I'll just stick with using the springs to lift then. I'll have to go back and look at some pics of 4" lift wagoneers. What about extending shackles in the rear? I'm running extended shackles on the Tacoma and they work well. But, they are a compression style shackle. Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be sure I'm covering all my bases before I lay down the cash.

will e · Post by **will e** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:42 am

You might hold off until the Ouray invasion. Come by and visit and you will see a wide array of different lifts.

Lumpskie · Post by **Lumpskie** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:04 am

^That's a great idea. Also, it would give some of you guys a chance to look at my rig and give me your 2 cents on what you see.

csuengr · Post by **csuengr** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:49 am

With any lift that low, the shocks are going to be the limiting factor. They are pretty much the limiting factor for any lift. IMHO, just do a 4" spring lift, find some good shocks, after you put on the lift so you can measure for them, and call it good. Disconnecting the sway bar helps also.

I would stay away from shocks included in a lift kit. They are usually cheap and very, VERY, stiff.

Nikkormat · Post by **Nikkormat** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:06 am

OK, I haven't considered doing a shackle flip in the rear because I have to replace my rears anyway. But, in my mind, it would seem like alot of work for not alot of return for an overland rig. Have you seem DrMarneruses (spelled sort of correctly) build? He has trimmed his fenders for big tires but he still only has 4 inches of lift. Without the big meats, I think that a lift about his height will be right. He's got a pretty neat cargo shelf too.

Lumpskie · Post by **Lumpskie** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:39 pm

csuengr: You're probably right but you can still fit a 10" travel shock with only 2" of lift, can't you? If I can max out the travel of a 10" 5125, I'd be pretty happy with my flex. (somehow I doubt I'd be able to get that much travel though)

Nikkormat: You mind posting a link to the thread you're looking at?

I don't mean to exasperate you guys... I just really had my heart set on a really low lift. I really appreciate your input.

FSJ Guy · Post by **FSJ Guy** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:51 pm

A 2" lift gives a nice stance, but I personally like the look and performance of a 4" lift. Skyjacker's 4" lift is a nice compromise of softness and flex, IMHO.

You might need new U joints on the driveline and a drop pitman arm and new brake lines, but that's it.

A 2" lift will be fine in Ouray. (You can travel around a lot of Ouray in a stock FSJ, actually) But IMHO it's more fun with a 4" lift. : D

GWag89 · Post by **GWag89** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:32 pm

4" kit with 31x10.5 is my vote

Here are pics of my old set up on my 88.
Ride height

Flexed out in a ditch. This is pretty much Max droop and stuff for the 4" lift spring and 31s sua and shackle mounted in tension.

This was a great combo for me at the time. I would recommend it to anyone looking to improve a stock fsj offroad capability.

husker77 · Post by **husker77** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:47 pm

I know this is kind of apples and oranges, but her is my widetrack. It had some sort of 3" front springs, wish I could tell you the brand and 2" lift blocks in the rear.

Nikkormat · Post by **Nikkormat** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Here's Marns Build. 73 wag with 33's. He ended up trimming the fenders though.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/t ... g-goodness!

I'm leaning towards whatever is cheapest and best at this point.

will e · Post by **will e** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:50 pm

Personally I am a big fan of 4" lift (all springs) and 31" tires. I did a lot with my Waggy with that setup.

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