YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

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ThunderWagon
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YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by ThunderWagon »

Howdy folks,

Long-time lurker on the other FSJ site and short-time lurker here.

I thought I would start a thread with my parts, progress (or lack thereof), and status of the fuel injection project on my Cherokee. Something to help me stay on task and accountable to making some sort of progress. :P

I am going with a modified Megasquirt system controlling a chevy TBI and a coil-on-plug ignition.

My original plan was simply Mesgasquirt fuel control with a TBI but after perusing Mike's (Myk) thread on the other site, I decided to go ahead and take the next step to go for coil-on-plug ignition for the extra control over the engine.

No pictures yet, this will be an ongoing process and it's not one that is easily managed posting from a tablet.

Parts I have so far:
- Throttle body & injectors from a chevy 350 454
- Assembled Megasquirt v3 & laptop
- Edelbrock intake & adapter plate for TBI ( & gaskets)
- Low-impedance injector driver board for Megasquirt (need to mod MS to install)
- Wiring connectors for TBI injectors & various sensors
- Coils & brackets (LS2 truck coils! :-bd )
- Timing wheel (6 3/4", 36-1 from DIYAutotune)
- Fuel lines (3/8 stainless, should have enough for supply & return)
- O2 sensor {Wideband + control box} (Received)
- Fuel pump (inline) & pre/post filters

Parts still needed:
- Various fittings for fuel system
- Sensor for timing wheel
- Some parts for Megasquirt mods (Constant Baro correction, )
- Not really a part but I still need to sort out the mounting strategy for the timing wheel. (update in recent posts, currently the biggest issue to address)

I think that's it for now, I'm probably missing some things. It always seems closer to being done when I review it in my head but seeing my list above, I have a fair ways to go. I have been updating the lists as time goes on and parts are acquired or needs/plans change. If something seems out of whack, just post it up or shoot me a message and I'll try to fix it. 8-)

Progress will be probably be kind of slow, funding for parts is my biggest obstacle, followed closely by time. Funding is still an issue but right now time is my limitation. Several home projects, a 4 year old, plus I am traveling & working a lot (more than the last few years at least). I am selling spare parts & such to help fund this so feel free to look for my ads in the parts sale section. :D

Thanks for following along! :cool:
Will

Last revision June 28, 2016
Last edited by ThunderWagon on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig

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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by AwesomeJ10 »

Sounds like you have pretty much everything to start the conversion.

Good luck!
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by Renodemona »

Wow, sounds like you have a great collection of stuff to get started with!
"Wait, what's on fire!?" KJ7TCT
--------------------------------------------------------------
1976 Cherokee w/t 'Susan' 401/TH400/QT(PT)
FiTech Go EFI, Edelbrock Performer intake
3" Rough Country Springs, HEI Dizzy
-------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Cherokee Trailhawk V6 'Sedna'

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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by FSJ Guy »

Interesting. A COP design! Can't wait to see it!
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by jaber »

I too am interested in the COP. Please take lots of pics... :-bd
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by TUDrewser »

Subscribed!
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by ThunderWagon »

Thanks all. I am hoping to have time to get some pics of the parts I have and do more research into what I need over the weekend.

I can't promise that progress on this will be fast but I am hoping to get it running by next winter. Whether that is realistic, I'm not sure, but here's to hoping! :D

:fsj:
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig

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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by FSJ Guy »

Progress is never as fast as one intends! LOL!
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by ThunderWagon »

So, like I said.... very slow to no progress! :mrgreen:

However, there has been a little progress and I have managed to get a few pictures of some of the parts I do have.

First, a trigger wheel! This is the 6 & 3/4" 36-1 wheel from DIY Autotune.
Image
The next step for this part is to machine the back (I think) front of the harmonic balancer down for this to fit between the balancer and the engine pulley. (As recommended by Myk on his FI build on the other FSJ site.) This might take a while, my buddy that has the experience & the equipment is out of town for work for a while. I also need to review/research and make sure I know what I'm doing with the balancer... :P

Next; throttle body.... yes, a good cleaning & a rebuild kit is on the list as well... :-?
Image

and last but not least; Edlebrok performer intake manifold, with the adapter to bolt up the throttle body (non-EGR).
Image

Not pictured is the megasquirt assembly, I didn't feel like digging it out of the box this afternoon. 8-)

I have revised my priorities a bit; I now want to get the FI up and running as soon as possible, whether or not I have the COP stuff, TBI fuel tank, etc sorted out or not.

With that in mind, I've determined that at a minimum I need:
- Wideband O2 sensor & brainbox (~$160) : I think I will probably go with a Innovate LC-2, might as well have the latest and greatest, right? :shock:
- External fuel pump (~$80) : To get everything up and running sooner, I will get an appropriate (flow & pressure) TBI fuel pump and run my stock gas tank for the time being. (And deal with fuel starve issues) Eventually I will upgrade to a rear tank suited for fuel injection (baffled) and hopefully with a little more capacity.
- Intake parts (plenum, air filter, etc) ($??) : I haven't decided whether to go junkyard adaptation or "custom" fit stuff from Summit. Probably the cheapest setup to start.
- Misc. other bits (sensor for timing wheel, wiring, fuel line fittings, gaskets, filters, etc)

My goal is still to get it at least running on fuel control by this winter... we shall see... :fsj:
Last edited by ThunderWagon on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by Bill usn-1 »

Couple notes, it doesn't seem you have read the FAQs on the Binderplanet...
It looks like you have the 5.7 TBI but you bought the Holley adapter with the 2"-7.4l bores.
I don't recommend mixing and matching bores. It can lead to vacuum leaks.
Make sure you preassemble and look for any potential problems before trying to run them.

As for fuel pumps...the regulator is built into the throttle body so just make sure you get a pump designed for EFI.
Do not try to limit the pump pressure based on the system.
There are several recommended pumps listed in the FAQs on BP. They are capable of up to about 90psi but the regulator maintains it at the 12psi factory pressure.
I also use the same pumps on my MPFI systems with an external regulator at 42psi.

I've never ran an EFI specific tank on any of my installations. Never found a need for it.
The stock tank has worked fine and I have literally wheeled all over the world.

If you want cheap and simple system just to get it running then I recommend just doing the GM TBI system.
Get it running with the factory Duraspark distr modified for timing control and learn how the system works.
Then start working on your Megasquirt toys with COP and whatever else you want to play with.
The bottom line is they are nice to play with but certainly needed to make the AMC a nice running engine with EFI.

These old engines work very well on TBI. Even swapping to MPFI will net very little performance/MPG gains if both are properly tuned.
The only thing you really gain with MPFI is the bling factor when you pop the hood.
It still take XX amount of fuel to push a 6000lb brick thru the air at 70mph.

My .02
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by ThunderWagon »

Hi Bill! Thanks for the reply; you're up in my home area, western WA! :-bd

Nope, I have not been to the Binderplanet forums but I will check it out and read some more. I have done a fair amount of reading on the megasquirt forums and I've browsed around various other forums when search results point me there.

With regards to the throttle body adapter, at the time I bought the manifold, throttle body, & adapter, the only adapter plate I could find that would bolt everything together is the one in the picture. (5+ years ago, maybe more? :shock: ) I have loose fit everything together and I don't remember seeing any glaring issues/differences with the bore size but it has been a while and I will look into what you described. ETA : I checked the fit this evening and you are correct Bill, there is a pretty significant size difference in the bores. Hmm, excuse to upgrade to the 454 TB? :D
Bill usn-1 wrote:Couple notes, it doesn't seem you have read the FAQs on the Binderplanet...
It looks like you have the 5.7 TBI but you bought the Holley adapter with the 2"-7.4l bores.
I don't recommend mixing and matching bores. It can lead to vacuum leaks.
Make sure you preassemble and look for any potential problems before trying to run them.
Again, I haven't read through binderplanet yet, but I am looking at a Carter GP-5001 pump. 50 gph @ 20 psi. From what little I have read, people have had good success using it with stock TBI units. I've read a few cautionary tales about running the pressure too high to the stock regulator, yikes...
Bill usn-1 wrote:As for fuel pumps...the regulator is built into the throttle body so just make sure you get a pump designed for EFI.
Do not try to limit the pump pressure based on the system.
There are several recommended pumps listed in the FAQs on BP. They are capable of up to about 90psi but the regulator maintains it at the 12psi factory pressure.
I also use the same pumps on my MPFI systems with an external regulator at 42psi.
I don't have anything against the stock tank, I think it will work just fine for the foreseeable future. I am looking longer term to upgrade capacity by going to a rear mount tank. If I'm doing that, I might as well use a baffled tank. I think that I will stick to an external fuel pump regardless, it makes sense to me from a maintenance/repair perspective.
Bill usn-1 wrote:I've never ran an EFI specific tank on any of my installations. Never found a need for it.
The stock tank has worked fine and I have literally wheeled all over the world.
My only issue with going to a GM system to get it running and then going back to Megasquirt is I would be buying the parts I already need to get the MS system going and then getting the GM system parts on top of that. I didn't put up a picture of it, but I do have the megasquirt brain fully assembled & tested on the bench. If I were to spend the money to get an O2 sensor, a fuel pump, trigger wheel sensor, and the misc wiring & plumbing bits; I think I could get the jeep up, running, & tuned to pass emissions in a couple of weekends, using the stock spark setup (well almost, I did upgrade to the ford TFI coil, cap, & rotor bits). But I'm not in a big hurry, like I said, my goal is get it running by the winter. If I manage to find the parts for COP for a reasonable price before then, great! :evil:

This is a spare time & money project. My goal is to get it up and running, get all the other mechanical issues addressed (ball joints & tie rods, transmission leaks, diffs serviced, etc, etc) to get it to a reliability level to be a daily driver. Once I get it there, I will work on selling my current daily driver truck ('03 Tundra). I have no illusions that this will be a fast, easy, or cheap process. :lol:
Bill usn-1 wrote:If you want cheap and simple system just to get it running then I recommend just doing the GM TBI system.
Get it running with the factory Duraspark distr modified for timing control and learn how the system works.
Then start working on your Megasquirt toys with COP and whatever else you want to play with.
The bottom line is they are nice to play with but certainly needed to make the AMC a nice running engine with EFI.
Yeah, I briefly looked into MPFI but it appeared to be a lot of work for very little gain in performance. It is pretty cool looking though. :)
Bill usn-1 wrote:These old engines work very well on TBI. Even swapping to MPFI will net very little performance/MPG gains if both are properly tuned.
The only thing you really gain with MPFI is the bling factor when you pop the hood.
It still take XX amount of fuel to push a 6000lb brick thru the air at 70mph.
Thanks!
Bill usn-1 wrote:My .02
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by Bill usn-1 »

Again, I haven't read through binderplanet yet, but I am looking at a Carter GP-5001 pump. 50 gph @ 20 psi. From what little I have read, people have had good success using it with stock TBI units. I've read a few cautionary tales about running the pressure too high to the stock regulator, yikes...
If you read it on the web it must be true...right?
Not so.
The p5001 I have found to make more noise then the engine.
I don't run them.

My only issue with going to a GM system to get it running and then going back to Megasquirt is I would be buying the parts I already need to get the MS system going and then getting the GM system parts on top of that.
MS will run all the GM parts. If you chose other parts it's just because you want to.
My point was you could get it running on the GM system and then simply swap the MS ecm in and work up a tune with it so you could learn how it works.
A simple harness jumper could be used to allow you to just swap the ECMs back and forth till you get the hang of it.
Then once your baseline is done you can start modifying your system with the COP etc.
Walk before you run.

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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by Herk »

A couple more thoughts... You can trigger the MS with a GM HEI distributor. You'll need a 7-pin module, and advance lockout plate, and a vacuum advance eliminator. This will make your system a good bit simpler by eliminating the crank trigger and 7 coils. And I believe DIY Autotune makes an adapter to the 7747 pinout if you are bashing a GM harness.
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by Bill usn-1 »

The GM large cap Coil in cap is not the preferred distr tho. You would be better off just using the stock AMC Duraspark and converting it according the the FAQs on the BP.
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by ThunderWagon »

Bill usn-1 wrote: If you read it on the web it must be true...right?
Not so.
What?! Everything on the internet isn't true??? My jeep won't make 500 hp and get 50 mpg with just the TBI upgrade? :mrgreen: I am kidding of course, my thoughts are that more problems may be introduced by using a higher pressure pump with a regulator in a system designed to operate at ~15-20 psi supply pressure. Can the stock regulator handle it? Probably, if it is in good condition, the spring isn't weak, etc. Adding an external regulator would avoid issues with the stock regulator but then there is additional cost of another part, plumbing bits, and so on. A positive of an external regulator would be the ability to observe the injector side fuel pressure while running.
Bill usn-1 wrote:The p5001 I have found to make more noise then the engine.
I don't run them.
Like I said, I'm looking at the 5001 but I haven't bought anything yet. Would your recommendation be to use a higher pressure pump with a good stock or external regulator? I believe I read on BP that you are/were recommending the E2000 or similar.
Bill usn-1 wrote: MS will run all the GM parts. If you chose other parts it's just because you want to.
My point was you could get it running on the GM system and then simply swap the MS ecm in and work up a tune with it so you could learn how it works.
A simple harness jumper could be used to allow you to just swap the ECMs back and forth till you get the hang of it.
Then once your baseline is done you can start modifying your system with the COP etc.
Walk before you run.
Okay, yes, I get that. I should have been a little less general in my statement to "...get the FI up and running as soon as possible..." How about this instead; I have decided to work towards getting the Megasquirt based fuel injection up and running as soon as possible, even if only using it for fuel control, while continuing to work towards of my long term goal of fuel & ignition control? :mrgreen:

I appreciate the responses & advice Bill. :-bd I have started reading through Binderplanet, that's a bunch of info to sort through. :shock:

On a progress note, my machining buddy should be back in town soon and I've spoken with him about the harmonic balancer mod as well as possibly working up an adapter sized for the 5.7 throttle body. :)
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by Bill usn-1 »

It still seems you are basing your decisions on poor information. By the time you get thru the BP FAQs twice, you should have a good idea of how to do it.

Pumps do not create pressure. They only flow the liquid. The regulator creates the pressure by restricting the flow until the set pressure is reached.
Pumps are rated by flow volume and max pressure they are capable of operating at.
Flow changes as pressure changes.

Now "if" you have a very high flow rate from a pump, meaning the pump ad fuel line size pumps more volume then the regulator is capable of flowing, then it may cause an increase in pressure.
BUT, we are discussing standard pumps used in stock applications not some 500-1000hp after market fuel pump.

NEVER........NEVER add additional parts into the system like extra regulators. The system should be set up just like it was from the factory. That includes running all new 3/8 feed line and 5/16 return lines. Scabbing a bunch of short pieces of line together just creates a restriction to fuel flow and will affect the system.

I already have the diagrams provided for 2 and 4bbl adapters that can be printed out to scale and simply glued to the plate and drilled as indicated.
It's all in those FAQs.
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

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Bill usn-1 wrote:It still seems you are basing your decisions on poor information.
I had typed out a fairly long reply to some of your post but I don't think the back and forth is being productive, so I will just let it go.
Bill usn-1 wrote:I already have the diagrams provided for 2 and 4bbl adapters that can be printed out to scale and simply glued to the plate and drilled as indicated.
It's all in those FAQs.
Thanks Bill, I did see those in the FAQs. Since I already have the bigger bore adapter plate, I can just hand that to my buddy and ask him for a rough copy with the smaller bore size. (By rough I mean approximate external size, but well finished on the mating/gasket surfaces. And knowing him, approximate external size will end up with the copy being within a couple hundredths of an inch, at worst. :roll: ) Machining is his latest hobby, he likes to tinker with an assortment of projects and likes working with aluminum. Yay for me! :-bd
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig

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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by FSJ Guy »

ThunderWagon, you can get some excellent information from www.Gearhead-efi.com, too. Tons of information there and a VERY knowledgeable group of folks. They are a good source if you're into modifying the GM system and getting it to do things it was never programmed to do from the factory. A lot of it is too complicated for me, but I love reading about their projects.
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by shimniok »

gearhead-efi.com is great for troubleshooting and tuning a factory GM EFI system, too. :) There's a lot of reading to do but in the end, a basic GM TBI system (all I can speak to) is actually fairly simple at some level. There aren't *that* many sensors. And yeah there are a boatload of parameters but the important ones (that need tuning) are few.
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Re: YAJFIP (Yet Another Jeep Fuel Injection Project)

Post by ThunderWagon »

Thanks guys. I will check out gearhead-efi as well. Lots of reading... :-bd
1978 Cherokee Chief S; 360, TH400, BW1339, stock aside from header back dual exhaust. Currently: Repairs/maintenance in progress, roadworthy soon (I hope!) :fsj:

1974 Cherokee NT; 360, T18, D20, completely stock & rusty - Parts Rig
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