ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

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ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

No problem Nutz! I was glad to stumble across that information. :)

Well, I think I toasted my clutch Friday night. I haven't yet pulled the inspection cover but since I have no pedal and no clutch, I think it's safe to say it's gone. We wonder if it has something to do with the leaking rear main seal.

Short List:

1. Finish front and rear hitch build. I'm half way through right now and the remaining parts are in the garage. I'll post pictures when I'm finished.
2. Install new RMS.
3. Install new clutch kit.
4. Change the fluid in the T18a and D20.
5. Rebuild the rear D44.

Numbers 2-4 will happen roughly at the same time. I want to do those before the D44 rebuild since I currently can't drive it. Once I come up with a couple bucks to buy the RMS, clutch kit, and fluid then find the time to rip into it, I'll be set. My ultimate goal is to have all this done before snowfall. We shall see...

Anyway, does anyone have suggestions on clutch kits? I'm not sure if I need a plain-ole clutch or if I should go for a performance style. I foresee having a full bed of firewood while towing a 4' x 8' trailer full of the same. As you know, I have the 360 with a few bolt on mods. If I ever rebuild it, I plan to up the compression a little to wake it up a touch more.

Thoughts?

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ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

While the process is very slow right now, I figured I'd post a couple teaser shots of the hitch build.

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I chopped out the green box. The actual hitch receiver tube will be welded in place.

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ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

I figured I'd post a small update with everything that is going on and see if anyone has suggestions...

The hitches are still 'in progress' but a good Saturday afternoon should have them finished up. It'll be nice to be able to tow with this!

As for the issue with the clutch - I found none of the flywheel bolts are visible, even with the inspection cover removed. Unless I'm missing something, it appears I'll have to pull the transmission just to inspect the clutch. That being said, I imagine I'm due for one anyway. When I popped the cover off, I noted an ominous burnt clutch smell. I also found a little clutch material in the bottom of the bell housing. The rear main seal is also leaking enough that the flywheel had a little oil on it. I've been wrong before (ask my wife) but to me, that all adds up to a bad clutch.

So, I started taking things apart in order to make a dent in this large project. I removed my twin stick, which was easy after the alterations I made during the install, the shifter, and the rear drive shaft (after marking it!) without much issue. The front shaft is positioned in such a way that the transfer case cross member needs removed, which is fine since it has to come out anyway. I pulled the cross member and dropped the front shaft. That's where I'm currently at. I'm ready to drop the transmission and transfer case. Once that's out, I figure I'll have the flywheel resurfaced, replace the rear main seal, install a new clutch, clean and install the transmission and transfer case, refresh the fluid in both, replace the drive shaft U-Joints, then take it for a spin.

As is typical, this project will be drawn out a little. Besides trying to find time and an extra set of hands, I recently tore my calf muscle. I'm hobbling around a little still and want to avoid re-injuring it. I still intend to have this taken care of soon but we know how that can go.

Anyway, does anyone have any advice, hints, brand preference, etc.? I'm all ears.

Lastly, below are some pictures of my progress so far.

Rear drive shaft at D20 transfer case:

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Rear drive shaft at D44:

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Front drive shaft at D44:

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Front drive shaft at D20. You can see how the cross member gets in the way:

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Clutch linkage stuff:

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Cables/Electric:

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Emergency brake cable *through* the cross member:

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Bolts and brackets on the cross member:

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Ready to unbolt from the engine:

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Topic author
ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

FYI -
http://www.penngrade1.com/Products/Gear-Lubricants/GL4-SAE-80W90.aspx wrote:
BRAD PENN® Multi-Purpose 'Classic' GL-4 SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil

The SAE 80W-90 is specially blended using high quality PENN-GRADE® mineral base stocks and select additive technologies. It is designed to be used with “yellow” metallurgy (brass, bronze, copper) and other ‘soft’ metals used in synchronizers, bushings, thrust washers and other components typically found in classic manual transmissions and transaxles. In applications specifying API GL-4 quality lubricants, use of API GL-5 lubricants with higher extreme pressure additive activity/concentration can damage these ‘soft’ metal components.
It's a heck of a lot cheaper than the Red Line MT-90 I posted a while back. The Red Line is ~$16/qt. This stuff comes out to $5.27/qt when buying a case of 12. Because of the price, I think I'll go with this since the necessary 5 qts needed for the D20/T18a cost just as much as a case of Brad Penn 023-7729: http://www.amazon.com/Brad-Penn-023-772 ... n+023-7729.

:tea:

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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

I almost forgot to update this thread!

During my RMS swap, we found I have worn and scored bearings. The following pictures are of the rearmost bearing. Unfortunately, the crank is scored as well - enough to feel it with your fingernail. I'm currently in the process of deciding my next move.

Options:

1. Replace the RMS and put it back together with the plan to rebuild in the coming months.
2. Temporarily "fix" what is broken and throw it back together. This will give me additional time to build up a little extra money for a full rebuild.
3. Rebuild or buy a reman.
4. Rebuild and warm it up a little (bump the compression a smidge, cam, etc.)

I know what I should do. I'm just waiting on a stack of hundie sticks to pile up. My real question is while I wait, should I make it drivable so I can move it around. Doing so would provide an emergency vehicle, especially if we get a few feet of snow and find we have to get out of the house for some reason or another. It would also mean I can open up that parking spot in the garage if need be.

Bearing wear:

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Tatsadasayago
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Since you are waiting for the fun tickets to pile up it would seem logical to put it back together. You know it's a runner at the moment and doing so will cost your the gaskets, seal and oil at this point. Your effort has a price tag on it as well. If you keep it full of oil, don't overheat or rev it above 3500 RPM the risk of damage is the same as it was before you 'knew' the condition inside the engine. In other words, the damage has already been done and frankly I've seen a helluva lot worse, much worse on solid running engines.
I would button it up, and have a driver rather than a hangar queen and plan your rebuild without the pressure to get it back together before you're ready.

My 2 cents for what it's worth.
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation
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fulsizjeep
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by fulsizjeep »

I am with Tats and have also seen worse that ran good.
Flint Boardman
88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s
https://jubileejeeps.org/quadratrac

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ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

Thanks 'fellas. After much debate, that's probably the route I'm going to go. Putting it back together as it is (with a new RMS) will allow me to take my time picking out the parts/upgrades I want.

I'm going to have my mechanic neighbor swing by sometime this weekend to check out the scoring on the crank. As long as he agrees that it will hold up for 6 months or so, I'll slap it back together and get the new clutch in.
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Regarding the scoring;
It takes some serious hard stuff to make a groove in the crank and it's most likely from casting bits inside the oil gallery that made it past cleanup at the foundry.
Other culprits are the distributor drive gears shaving bits off that make it through the pump and blast through the filter media. If you were to see the upper half of that bearing you would likely see some scoring near the center where the oiling hole is. Bits of metal that make it to the bearings are quite small and will float around in the oiling groove slowly being reduced in size until they can slip out across the bearing face. That's those parallel fine scoring lines you see in the copper.

Best of luck and let us know how she does with a new clutch!

Jim
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

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ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

Current plan:

I after talking to my father-in-law and mechanic neighbor, we've decided to put it back together for the winter. My neighbor said that the crank is scored a little but not bad enough to worry for now.

This weekend, I hope to get everything back together and have the truck running again. While this doesn't seem like too tall of an order, completely finishing everything depends on if I can wrangle up an extra set or two of hands to help line up the transmission.

Following winter, my next order of business is to pull the engine and have it rebuilt. Originally, I intended to build it in the garage with the help of my neighbor, of course after having the machining professionally done. That plan may change - my neighbor informed me last weekend that he talked to their engine rebuild shop about my situation. As an aside, keep in mind I want to up the power but keep it a low end 'torque monster'. I don't really want a high revving race motor. So, without actually pricing things out, the builder estimated that he could punch out the cylinders, blueprint the block, rebuild the head, up the cam, etc., etc., etc. with the intent of increasing horsepower/torque in the low end for ~$1,600 out the door. I simply have to drop it off as is and pick it up when it's rebuilt.

All in all, I take that as good news! :) The low price tag means I'll be able to start this project quite a bit earlier than expected. I also have quite a bit of wiggle room for picking out extra goodies and/or tools that I may need for the project.

That's all for the future though. At the moment, I'm in the fund building and research stage. For now, my main goal is to get 'er up and running and ready for the winter.
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by Tatsadasayago »

I think you made the right call Chris.
As far as making torque at lower RPMs I found cam selection to be one of the most effective for bring out the grunt factor.

I Wanted low to mid RPM power and knew I needed a higher lift and short duration profile.
I talked to the folks at Crower and their Baja Beast AMC cam met my specs fairly closely.
It's a dual pattern cam with .455"/.448" advertized lift at 258/264 duration. (204/210 @.050") and a 112 degree centerline for a nice high vacuum idle. It's power range is 1500 - 4500 RPM with a redline of 5000. I rarely rev over 4500 so the power range is down where I can use it.
http://www.crower.com/camshafts/amc/amc ... 258-h.html

I installed and degreed the cam, then advanced it 6 degrees and am glad I did!
From idle to 4000 this thing is such a beast I sold the 401 I was going to put in the Cherokee because this 360 ran so well.
Torque is right there at idle and starts to roll off around 3500 and when crawling/wheeling I have to be careful with the throttle in low range or tire spin happens a bit too easily.
At 300' above sea level the engine idles at 22" of vacuum and rolls down the highway at 65 with an average of 20".
Sitting at Donner Summit @ 7600' it was making 16" or so.

Anyway, for 160.00 it's not a cheap camshaft but I feel it was worth it for the performance I was looking for. Obviously roller rockers and good pushrods along with a smaller venturi carb and good flowing dual plane intake to a non-restrictive exhaust help keep the valve train wear down and air flowing well.

Hope to see your build in the spring Chris!
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

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ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

Thanks for the info! That gives me a wonderful reference point when I start my research!

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ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

It has been quite some time since I've updated everyone with what is going on so I figured I better get to it!

I replaced the RMS, torqued down the bearing caps, installed the oil pan and gasket, and topped it off with a fresh batch of T5 10W-30.

Next, I popped out the pilot bushing with a puller, after covering myself in grease trying to hammer it out. The new one installed wonderfully using a bolt, nut, washer and some electrical tape. I'll try to take a picture of this homemade tool my father-in-law came up with. It worked brilliantly.

We ran into some issues because frankly, I'm an idiot. Ultimately the clutch, transmission, and transfer case installed fairly well without too much of a headache. We did remove the transmission tunnel to help the installation along. Let me tell ya, it's totally worth the extra few minutes to take that off.

I now need to install the starter, cross member, drive shafts, connect the wiring to the transfer case, and hook up the emergency brake.

Lastly, since the clutch is brand new, I intend to change the transmission and transfer case fluid with the Brad Penn gear oil I recently picked up. I hope to finish this all Saturday and take it out for its maiden voyage. Until then, I'm running the wire wheel on the remaining parts to clean them up followed by some primer and paint. Clean parts are so much better to work with.

Brad Penn GL-4 and Yellow Metal Safe Gear Oil Labels

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Also, for those who are curious, I snapped a few pictures of the siping I had done last fall. The front and rear were done the same. I think the rears show more wear as they're the drive tires. I probably should rotate them to keep everything even.

Rear:

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Front:

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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

Well, the clutch and RMS jobs are finished! I completed the list Tuesday morning. The full thread can be found here: http://fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6885

I changed the fluid in the transmission and transfer case Tuesday morning. I was a little surprised to see a chocolate milkshake drain from the transmission. :eek: I hope it likes the new Brad Penn gear oil I replaced the milkshake with...

Let's see... I replaced the starter wire as the old one had about an inch of the copper showing at the starter, which was also covered in oil and grease. A few of the copper wires were broken as well.

The RMS seems to be holding up. I was a little leery as an oil leak appeared after the test drive Saturday night. I wasn't sure if it was from the new RMS or the valve cover. I did note that after a longer drive on Tuesday, the oil leak appeared to have ceased. We shall see...

I have a little bit of a sticky throttle that I need to tinker with. There is a slight chance the carpet holding the accelerator in place. I obviously need to straighten that up and see if it remedies my issue. Besides that, my idle wants to run high at around 1,200 rpm. Assuming I get a few minutes this weekend, I'll poke around and see what's up.

My next order of business is to finish and install my front and rear hitches. Hopefully I can get on that in the next couple of weeks. I also have a truck tool box I want to stick in the back soon. Though it's a little short edge to edge, it still fits nicely. It was originally installed in a mid 90s S-10. I'll post pictures when I pop that in.

That's about all I can think of at the moment. I'll update when more comes up!

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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

I tinkered a little with the carb and am still having an issue with a high idle. I didn't have much time to mess with it though so my attempt to solve the problem was kind of pointless. My next step is to check the timing and electric choke. The only thing that has changed since I drove it before the clutch went out is the temperature.

I did get to drive it around some on Saturday. While my truck is mildly lifted at only 3" on 33" tires, I feel it's a decently large vehicle. Saturday, I pulled up to a friends house to help him move a hot tub and ran across this monster. One of the guys that helped us was scooting around in this. It makes my truck look like a little toy. To put it into perspective, I'm about 6' - 6' 2" depending on the day. The top of the bed rails were at my eyes. :shock: He was rocking 41" Iroks.

This pictures makes it appear I have a rearward rake. I'll have to get out the tape measure and see...

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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

Saturday, my brother and I went shooting over at our Mom's place. I took the truck down into the timber to carry some targets and what not. I had to kick it into 4x4 to get it back out (slick clay dirt). It's nice getting it off the pavement!

Guns of choice for the day:

Springfield XD 9mm
Mossberg 500 12ga
Remington 700 Varmint .308 with a 26" Heavy Barrel and a Millet 6-25x56 LRS Illuminated Mildot

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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

Couple questions:

First off, remember that I have an Edelbrock Performer intake manifold, DUI distributor, and a rebuilt 600 cfm Holley 4160 carburetor that looks a bit like a Truck Avenger. Also remember, before I did the clutch job, the truck was running pretty darn well (minus the fact that I haven't personally tuned the carb). During the clutch install, I also changed the RMS as well as the gear oil in the transmission and transfer case. I didn't touch anything in the top end.

So, the truck sat for 3 months during this process. Once finished, it started right up. I've since ran a couple tanks of Shell and Road Ranger 93 octane gas (Top Tier) through the truck with fuel stabilizer and currently, seafoam, in the tank.

The problem - now that the truck is drivable, I notice I have a high idle (~1,200 RPM). When I first start it, I can sometimes get the idle to sit at around 600 - 800 RPM but once it heats up for a minute or so, it jumps up to 1,200 RPM. No matter what I do, I can't bring it back down. We (my father-in-law, mechanic neighbor, and myself) have looked over everything. We've verified there are no vacuum leaks, we've tried to adjust the idle set screw, verified the accelerator pump is functioning, checked the floats, set the timing to 15° advanced and still have a 1,200 RPM idle. The truck drives fine. It just has a high idle which was not present before the clutch job. Thoughts?

Second question - The clutch feels good and seems to be doing its job. I don't notice any issue shifting. The pedal pressure feels nice as well. One strange thing I've noticed though (and maybe it's normal) is when I run the truck to a higher RPM, the 'dead spot' at the beginning of the pedal throw disappears. In other words, during normal driving, I have about an inch of initial pedal travel where the clutch isn't engaging at all. It's just a dead spot in the pedal. If I drive a little more spirited, once it hits about 2,500 RPM, pressure pushes back on the pedal and eliminates the dead spot. If I gently rest my foot on the clutch pedal while speeding up (only for testing purposes, of course), I can literally feel the pressure push against my foot once I reach higher RPM. Is this normal? I've never experienced this before...
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by Tatsadasayago »

I'll take a shot at this :)

Since you've eliminated the vacuum leak possibilities and adjusted the idle to no avail I would say your fast idle issue is likely with the timing.
If I was there, I would throw a timing light on the engine and do a cold start noting the reading once the engine could idle at 800 RPM or so.
I would then watch the coolant temp and see if the idle picks up when it reaches 165 degrees or so at the thermostat. If this were to happen, I would trace the vacuum line(s) from the manifold to the distributor and EGR if so equipped. I would be looking for a vacuum signal being routed through the temp controlled valve on the intake to the distributor. What I would be looking for is an advance of timing at idle, which would increase the RPM.
If you have no EGR or temp controlled switch...I don't know what to suggest next.

As far as your clutch pedal moving; it sounds like the powertrain is rolling to the right under load which pushes the clutch linkage rod upward and taking up the slack. Since you had the transmission out recently, I'd suspect your motor mounds got stretched out when they took the full weight of the engine. Pretty common even when the engine is supported because you still have to let it drop some to get the trans out.
To confirm, I'd have a helper 'power-brake' the truck while I watched the clutch linkage from underneath.
My 74 did that and being poor at the time I couldn't afford new motor mounts so I added more slack in the linkage so the clutch didn't slip and the throwout bearing wasn't under pressure when under load. You would be surprised at how much torque is applied by just driving your truck at 55mph on a flat straight road due to wind resistance.

I hope this helps ya!

Jim
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

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ChrisHager
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by ChrisHager »

Tatsadasayago wrote:I'll take a shot at this :)
:-bd
Tatsadasayago wrote:Since you've eliminated the vacuum leak possibilities and adjusted the idle to no avail I would say your fast idle issue is likely with the timing.
If I was there, I would throw a timing light on the engine and do a cold start noting the reading once the engine could idle at 800 RPM or so.
I would then watch the coolant temp and see if the idle picks up when it reaches 165 degrees or so at the thermostat. If this were to happen, I would trace the vacuum line(s) from the manifold to the distributor and EGR if so equipped. I would be looking for a vacuum signal being routed through the temp controlled valve on the intake to the distributor. What I would be looking for is an advance of timing at idle, which would increase the RPM.
If you have no EGR or temp controlled switch...I don't know what to suggest next.
Hmmm... I installed a D.U.I. distributor and am almost positive the advance is only affected by vacuum. That being said, I will monitor the timing as the engine warms up.
Tatsadasayago wrote:As far as your clutch pedal moving; it sounds like the powertrain is rolling to the right under load which pushes the clutch linkage rod upward and taking up the slack. Since you had the transmission out recently, I'd suspect your motor mounds got stretched out when they took the full weight of the engine. Pretty common even when the engine is supported because you still have to let it drop some to get the trans out.
To confirm, I'd have a helper 'power-brake' the truck while I watched the clutch linkage from underneath.
My 74 did that and being poor at the time I couldn't afford new motor mounts so I added more slack in the linkage so the clutch didn't slip and the throwout bearing wasn't under pressure when under load. You would be surprised at how much torque is applied by just driving your truck at 55mph on a flat straight road due to wind resistance.
Very good point. I'll have someone power-brake it while I watch. I bet you're correct! Assuming this is the case, I'll replace the engine and transmission mounts when I pull it all again to do the engine rebuild.
Tatsadasayago wrote:I hope this helps ya!

Jim
Your comments are definitely helpful!

Thanks!
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Re: ChrisHager's 79 J-10 Build Thread

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Yanno...

I once dealt with a Holley 4160 4BBL that did something similar. When the engine reached operating temp it would pick up to a fast idle like yours and I figured out that it's base plate was cracked from the drivers front bolt hole across to the primary throttle plate. When it warmed up the crack would begin sucking air and leaning the mixture out. Since the carb had been jetted rich the leaning of the mixture caused a noticeable idle increase.

The oddness in this case is this didn't seem to be an issue prior to the clutch job.

If you apply the Occam's Razor Principle: ...that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.; it is likely a simple thing that is causing the problem.


I've been pondering all the things that may have done during the project that might affect the warm idle.
It's possible a critter built a nest in your air cleaner housing that is obstructing the airflow, which causes enrichment that increases the idle once things warm up.

The rear of the engine dropped some causing hoses, wires and linkage to get some different stresses. Your rubber fuel hoses could be dried out and the cracks expanded when they were tweaked a bit causing them to either dribble fuel or suck wind--which would lead to a lower float level and leaning of the mixture.
I wager that if you find the cause it will be directly related to the engine or under-hood temp change etc.

For sure let us know what you find to be the cause of this JeapBrainTeaser :)
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation
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