77 wagoneer dd

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superdave
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:35 pm

Got the seats out and started pulling the front carpet. I'll have to wait until Tuesday for a torx socket for my impact to arrive from Amazon to get the front seat belts out before getting the last piece of carpet out. Floors look pretty good, the driver side is a little rougher though, maybe from salty boots. Theres some insulation stuck to the floor that looks like the tar paper that goes under shingles on a house, does anybody know if that's factory? I'm just curious if anybody else has been digging around in there.ImageImageImageImage

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Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell

SJTD
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby SJTD » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:38 pm

While you're waiting did you put some rusty nut secret stuff on the bolts from below?
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

1979bettywhite
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby 1979bettywhite » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:21 pm

SJTD wrote:While you're waiting did you put some rusty nut secret stuff on the bolts from below?


I will second that. My seat belt bolts were a bear. Heat from underneath will help too.

That tar paper like stuff is oem. Although my floors were color matched. So unless some of the black underside residue is staying down with yours someone might have done some rust proofing.


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superdave
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:07 am

1979bettywhite wrote:
SJTD wrote:While you're waiting did you put some rusty nut secret stuff on the bolts from below?


I will second that. My seat belt bolts were a bear. Heat from underneath will help too.

That tar paper like stuff is oem. Although my floors were color matched. So unless some of the black underside residue is staying down with yours someone might have done some rust proofing.


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It's tough to tell if the black paper melted, because it's coming up harder where it's leaving the residue. I'll have to do a bit more scraping to tell. Won't make a difference, it's all getting wire brush, POR15, and bedliner. And yes, I'm considering buying stock in the penetrating oil that autozone carries.
Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell

1979bettywhite
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby 1979bettywhite » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:12 am

lol. I use PB Blaster. Has always worked pretty well for me. But a torch helps a lot as well. And since you can access that seat belt bolt from underneath, heat may be your best friend. Careful with the T50 bit as it can round out in the bolt head pretty quick. I think I am on my third T50 bit after dealing with all my seat belts (yes, the other two broke). I hate Torx head bolts. If you do decide to re-use them, anti-size is your friend.

superdave
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:23 am

Yep, I'll be swapping hardware to some nice grade 8 hex bolts. Already buggered up one in back (not to mention some knuckles) using my lame 3/8 torx socket and a breaker bar. That, as it turns out, was not the correct way to tackle that.
Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell

1979bettywhite
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby 1979bettywhite » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:34 am

Yeah, my rear seat belt mount that sits above the gas tank is my last one that won't budge. I don't feel like dropping the tank to access it, so I am probably going to resort to drilling it out. Even the ones in the wheel wells gave me serious issues.

You just can't apply a lot of force with a torx bit. Trust me, I tried applying all the forces. Long 1/2 breaker bar, big impact gun. You either wind up like you and I did with busted knuckles and most likely a wallowed out bolt head, or your bit breaks.

But on the bright side, the ones in the b-pillar came out nice and easy!

What belts are you going back with? I did re-use my front seat latch bolts in the trans tunnel. They have the shoulder needed, less torque applied, and easily accessible from underneath. But everything else that went back in was grade 8 hex with anti-seize applied everywhere.

I would venture to say that it's just the leftover residue from the a paper in your floor pans. Which might have actually helped to prevent some rust. I did POR 15 as well on my pans, then did sound deadening as well. Worth doing while you have it all out. Also, I did not do this, but I may go back in and do it, is adding some more insulation around the trans tunnel and firewall. Seem to still get decent amount of heat from the trans tunnel even with the sound deadener.

1979bettywhite
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby 1979bettywhite » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:40 am

Also, I used this for my doors:

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/ame ... rstripping

The second image is what it actually looks like. I think the first image on the site is wrong. You of course need the bubble to the side. Part #19600.

I think I needed three total packs. One pack will run enough to basically leave the bottom. So you will have some leftover from the third pack for sure, but just can't get it done with two.

Seems to really fit nice and good snug fit with my doors now. Little harder to shut them, but I also know they are sealing a lot better than before.

1979bettywhite
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby 1979bettywhite » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:46 am


superdave
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:07 am

Well, I'm trying to not let this spiral out of control, but- I realized I'm missing half the lap belts in back. And the reason I started looking at wagoneers a while back was because I wanted a 4 door Jeep, with the expectation of kids in the next couple years. After some thinking, I've decided to upgrade the rear seat. I found a tahoe third row seat with built in belts. It'll take a bit of work to get it in. I'll then start looking for front seats with built in belts. There's the nbs Chevy, or a few imports. We'll see what I find.
Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell

superdave
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:18 pm
Location: Indiana

Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:20 am

They're about an inch and a half too wide. I think I'll use this as a warmup project before I start cutting/welding my rear quarter patch panels, so I can practice making stuff pretty. I bought them from a guy who was adding a 3rd row in his non- 3rd row equipped Tahoe to increase its resale, but the truck sold too fast so he had the seats and brackets sitting around. Image

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Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell

XSapper
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby XSapper » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:29 pm

superdave wrote:Yep, I'll be swapping hardware to some nice grade 8 hex bolts. Already buggered up one in back (not to mention some knuckles) using my lame 3/8 torx socket and a breaker bar. That, as it turns out, was not the correct way to tackle that.
Since you don't plan on reusing the bolts take a cutoff wheel and remove as much of the bolt that is sticking out the back if you can get to it.

SJTD
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby SJTD » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:50 pm

My usual comments when someone mentions installing seats with integral belts:

Are you qualified to design the seat mounts to take the additional load of the bodies against the belts in a crash?

Don't make your future family into crash test dummies.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

superdave
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:18 pm
Location: Indiana

Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:32 am

SJTD wrote:My usual comments when someone mentions installing seats with integral belts:

Are you qualified to design the seat mounts to take the additional load of the bodies against the belts in a crash?

Don't make your future family into crash test dummies.


That's a good point.
Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell

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Fast79Chief
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby Fast79Chief » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:19 am

When installing seats with integral belts, what we have done is basically 'over-engineer' the floor support from underneath. Next time you remove a seat you would like to use from the donor vehicle, take a good look at the way it was bolted into that vehicle. Look at how thick the reinforcement is/was in its factory floor bolt locations. Then once you are comfortable with the fit and backspacing into your vehicle, use either steel box tubing or 3/16 flat stock for each bolt location to pass through under the floor. You can easily make a FSJ floor stronger than the donor vehicle with a little reinforcement.
1979 Cherokee Chief S, 360, MSD Pro Billet Distributor with New Factory Ignition Box (Wow), HEI Wires, Edelbrock 1406, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3.54 gears, Tru-Trac Locker in the rear, Turbo 400, New Quadratrac, Dual gas tanks, new 32 x 11.50's, Big Honkin winch, Homemade 2.5" full length exhaust, Custom Headlight Harness, Custom Rear Bumper under construction, Class V receiver hitch ... and a lot of work to do yet. :)

superdave
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Location: Indiana

Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:14 am

Fast79Chief wrote:When installing seats with integral belts, what we have done is basically 'over-engineer' the floor support from underneath. Next time you remove a seat you would like to use from the donor vehicle, take a good look at the way it was bolted into that vehicle. Look at how thick the reinforcement is/was in its factory floor bolt locations. Then once you are comfortable with the fit and backspacing into your vehicle, use either steel box tubing or 3/16 flat stock for each bolt location to pass through under the floor. You can easily make a FSJ floor stronger than the donor vehicle with a little reinforcement.


Thanks for chiming in. I was spraying the last seat belt bolt near the driver side rocker last night and was looking at the support it ties into- looks like you could lift the whole body with those bolts if you wanted. My plan for the back was to create a subframe above and below the floor with flat stock, sandwiching the floor board itself and tying all the mounts together. You think 3" x 3/16" will suffice? I thought about using angle or square tube if there's clearance underneath to stiffen it up more and keep it from flexing. Also planning a small body lift, so that might give me the extra space. I'll probably ask a friend who welds for a living to do the finish welds to make sure it's rock solid. I'm thinking something similar for front seats, but it will be a bit more complicated with the trans tunnel.
Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell

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Fast79Chief
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby Fast79Chief » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:24 am

Yes Dave, 3/16 x 3" wide is very strong. But it has to be tied in properly and WELDED properly. I like your idea to let an experienced welder handle that part. Also use Grade 8 bolts, washers and locknuts. I like using wide, thick, Grade 8 washers with 3/8" holes for seat work.
Front seats require the square stock under there in my opinion. You made a small framework under each seat to bolt the seat to. Make it so that the vehicle would have to basically rip in half for a seat to pull out. No car manufacturer is doing that. lol
1979 Cherokee Chief S, 360, MSD Pro Billet Distributor with New Factory Ignition Box (Wow), HEI Wires, Edelbrock 1406, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3.54 gears, Tru-Trac Locker in the rear, Turbo 400, New Quadratrac, Dual gas tanks, new 32 x 11.50's, Big Honkin winch, Homemade 2.5" full length exhaust, Custom Headlight Harness, Custom Rear Bumper under construction, Class V receiver hitch ... and a lot of work to do yet. :)

superdave
Posts: 154
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Location: Indiana

Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:20 am

Fast79Chief wrote:Yes Dave, 3/16 x 3" wide is very strong. But it has to be tied in properly and WELDED properly. I like your idea to let an experienced welder handle that part. Also use Grade 8 bolts, washers and locknuts. I like using wide, thick, Grade 8 washers with 3/8" holes for seat work.
Front seats require the square stock under there in my opinion. You made a small framework under each seat to bolt the seat to. Make it so that the vehicle would have to basically rip in half for a seat to pull out. No car manufacturer is doing that. lol


What size square tube would you suggest?
Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell

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Fast79Chief
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Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby Fast79Chief » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 am

Depends on the area you are dealing with. If you have room for 1 1/4" use that. The wall thickness is very important. No less that 1/8" wall.
1979 Cherokee Chief S, 360, MSD Pro Billet Distributor with New Factory Ignition Box (Wow), HEI Wires, Edelbrock 1406, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3.54 gears, Tru-Trac Locker in the rear, Turbo 400, New Quadratrac, Dual gas tanks, new 32 x 11.50's, Big Honkin winch, Homemade 2.5" full length exhaust, Custom Headlight Harness, Custom Rear Bumper under construction, Class V receiver hitch ... and a lot of work to do yet. :)

superdave
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:18 pm
Location: Indiana

Re: 77 wagoneer dd

Postby superdave » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:09 am

Thanks for your help! I'll get to measuring and making some drawings and cardboard templates.
Dave Knoerzer
1977 Wagoneer 360/400/QT stock as far as I can tell


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