83 Cherokee education through restoration

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Florida83FSJCherokee
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

cma wrote:By the way...i saw you are using a "Dremel" ! Could you recomment? Which Model do you use? I am thinking longer time about buy one....

Markus,

I used a 4.5 " grinder with a 1/16" wide cutting wheel to do most of the debriding, and the fine thinning of each layer was accomplished using a flap disc. The dremel was used to cut out the inner layers and honestly it was the only tool i have that was capabale of getting inside that tight area.

Its one of those tools that you will find uses for alot. They make every attachment you can think of and its small enough to fit in the areas that a normal cutting wheel or wire brush cant reach.

Thanks

JP
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cma
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by cma »

Thanks for your replay JP!

As i am remaining old tube radios where i have to polish a lot of small things (by hand) i will do this investment....have some small rust spots at the Chief to grind out where this tool could be ideal.....
Florida83FSJCherokee wrote:
cma wrote:By the way...i saw you are using a "Dremel" ! Could you recomment? Which Model do you use? I am thinking longer time about buy one....

Markus,

I used a 4.5 " grinder with a 1/16" wide cutting wheel to do most of the debriding, and the fine thinning of each layer was accomplished using a flap disc. The dremel was used to cut out the inner layers and honestly it was the only tool i have that was capabale of getting inside that tight area.

Its one of those tools that you will find uses for alot. They make every attachment you can think of and its small enough to fit in the areas that a normal cutting wheel or wire brush cant reach.

Thanks

JP
Markus!

Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

Jeep Cherokee Chief Laredo, 12/1982, AMC 360, black/black

Picture Story: https://picasaweb.google.com/1019823415 ... directlink
Part II:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1019823415 ... directlink
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whsii
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by whsii »

cma wrote:Thanks for your replay JP!

As i am remaining old tube radios where i have to polish a lot of small things (by hand) i will do this investment....have some small rust spots at the Chief to grind out where this tool could be ideal.....
Florida83FSJCherokee wrote:
cma wrote:By the way...i saw you are using a "Dremel" ! Could you recomment? Which Model do you use? I am thinking longer time about buy one....

Markus,

I used a 4.5 " grinder with a 1/16" wide cutting wheel to do most of the debriding, and the fine thinning of each layer was accomplished using a flap disc. The dremel was used to cut out the inner layers and honestly it was the only tool i have that was capabale of getting inside that tight area.

Its one of those tools that you will find uses for alot. They make every attachment you can think of and its small enough to fit in the areas that a normal cutting wheel or wire brush cant reach.

Thanks

JP
I have had two or three Dremel's over the years, most used on R/C aircraft. I have found that a Rotozip with a three foot flexible cable, is hands down better. The slim handle gets into tight places better and it uses all Dremel bits. "Oh the power!"

I actually have two RotoZips, one just keeps the flexible shaft, (1/8" chuck) the other is used as a router, chuck wire brushes in it to clean, grind, and sometimes use it for cutoff, when it fits better than the 4" grinder. (1/4" chuck). The tool changes very easily from 1/4" to 1/8", actually the newer one has a variable chuck which does not require any changing of collets, as the older one does.

Just my thoughts...
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Florida83FSJCherokee
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

A-Pillar Repair - section 2- fabrication day

Went this morning to my good friend Kevin's shop (actually his dad's shop...). He and his father are fellow farriers and his dad, Kenny is one of my mentors.

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Kenny has a side business building utility bodies and other metal based art, fabrication, and design projects. He has always been one of the first to help me in situations that were above my experience level as far as fabrication and Farriery are concerned.


So I asked Kevin for his help in creating the detailed brakes in the A-pillars various layers.

To begin careful measurements were taken of each layer and recorded on the top secret cardboard box cutout. ;)
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The various bends were measured using a gauge finder (this one came from H.F. and cost under 10$ )
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After all "figur'n" the best tool for the job was determined to be...The good ol' manual brake.
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A sample piece was created to test our measurements and the math. If it ended up short or long we would know to add or subtract steel... The reason it could change is that when you bend steel it stretches and grows. Kevin’s basic rule is to add the thickness of the steel, multiplied by the number of bends, to get the total added width needed in the section. Sometimes you need less and sometimes more. It just depends of the degrees of angle you’re bending. As an example a 125deg bend will stretch more than a 45deg bend…

the gauge is magnetic and sticks to the breaks table so you can pull up the bend untill the gauge hits your mark. A good tip is to always pull to your mark, release pressure, and then pull back to the point of contact to check your angles. There is a slight spring to the metal that will cause your bends to be slightly off. after the second check you can pull the bend back up a touch to get your actually measurement.

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The sample worked out perfectly except we couldn’t make the final break because it was too tight and the previous breaks were interfering….To fix this he reversed the order so he could finish on the opposite side of the pattern and it worked perfectly so on to the full length section.

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First the shear
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Finished top section
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Checked for alignment and fit
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Everything looked good so out came number two
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Next we worked on the inner section. This was a much easier pattern because there were no tight angles. When finished we checked them against the original A-pillar and in the new top section. Again it lined up perfectly

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The bottom layer was not able to be created as a single piece because the final section wouldn’t clear the ½” tolerance of the break. Instead of fighting it we made the section that matches the Dip rail separately and brought the seams to the corner of the underside door jamb edge. This allows a single weld line that can be tied into all 3 layers. It also can be plug welded along the center/bottom edge of the top and center section. Since this piece is responsible for holding the seal it needs to be secure. The plug welding and the solid inner seem should accomplish that and make it stronger than original.

Image
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Florida83FSJCherokee
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

So it’s hard to hold all the pieces in absolute alignment but since it’s assembled in sections that won’t be an issue.

This is the completed A-pillar minus the outer Dip Rail (its being made for me by a specialty sheetmetal fabricator becasue it requires a custom die be made to press it out) . It matches the original perfectly and it has truly been a gift to have Kevin create these for me. Use your imagination and picture it plug and seem welded together nice and tight!

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Next is to rebuild the lower tie in sections that are inside the cowl/firewall bulkhead. Luckily they all tie into areas that are solid and not rusted so simply cutting and pasting the new metal will accomplish it. Since this area cannot be seen once the inner layer is welded over it , and even more so when the cowl is completely covering it I’m going to make some changes to the design. Basically beefing up the areas where the pillar ties into the brace instead of leaving the strength to the same 16 gauge sheet metal. I feel this is part of the flaw that has allowed such devastation to occur inside that area.
This will not alter the angle or pitch of the windshield because the lower section is already tied into the thicker lower windshield support brace (my saving grace at this point). As long as I build onto the lower braces and line up to the upper solid pillar it should be identical... should have a chance to work on this at the upcoming shop day so I’ll take pictures and get you guys updated.

Thanks for checking it out and I hope the good fortune continues with this repair project!

JP
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Florida83FSJCherokee
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

WSHII
I will check that out. Ive actually heard that same advice from some of my friends. I have a 12" flexible extension thing for the dremel but I lost it somewhere. :lol:

Roto zip just sounds cooler as well, dremel sounds like an angry dentist!

thanks

JP
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whsii
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by whsii »

Your fab shop day was fruitful!

Nice work. Will the openings between the metal be open at the roof once installed?

WH
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

whsii wrote:Your fab shop day was fruitful!

Nice work. Will the openings between the metal be open at the roof once installed?

WH
whsii wrote:Your fab shop day was fruitful!

Nice work. Will the openings between the metal be open at the roof once installed?

WH
I have the roof section as a complete replacement. Whether fully or just in the corners is yet to be decided . The sections that were pictured above are going to get cut down to appropriate size and replace what was cut out in the lower corners and meet the healthy pillar at the top of the rusted section.

The upper section will get cut out, replaced, and tie into the original pillar as well. The roof replacement section is in perfect shape so.it should be a straight forward stock replacement.

Sorry if its confusing...


JP
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whsii
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by whsii »

You got me thinking of this situation, can you access the gaps in the layered metal A frame from the roof?

I repaired several places on my J10 but did not think this part out. If the layers have an access above the headliner, I have an option for help keeping rust out of the inside of the system.

PM industries has a product that is an additive for rust preventive paint. They sell a quart can of it, I believe it is Calcium sulfate. One tablespoon mixed with a quart of enamel paint is what they call rust preventive paint.

I used this product inside of the boxed frame rails, in the boxed bed frame members, inside the rocker panels, and even the tube on the outer edge of the sport side bed. The product looks like butterscotch slurp. I mixed it with mineral spirits and used a tank sprayer to coat all of the above sections. I even did the inside of the door panels, which is where I got to see, it put a thick waxy coating on the metal surfaces sealing them from O2.

Just a thought, If it is accessible, I will spray mine. I never considered it until now.

WH
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

whsii wrote:You got me thinking of this situation, can you access the gaps in the layered metal A frame from the roof?

WH
Ive heard a couple thoughts on this so far. One from the sheetmetal fabricator /restoration specialist and another from Kenny..

So the first theory (from the classic auto restorer) is that the roofs side tubing section has a channel in it to funnel the metal roofs collected condensation into the upper a-pillar and downward out the bottom of the a-pillar to remove the mositure plauged roof. Any built up water would end up in the hinge housing areas behind the doors and eventualy evaporate or in some cases exit a drain in the floor... This obviously causes the inside of the pillars to rust and eventually break down to what has occured in my own pillars. A large portion of my issue was from the seal being cracked and rotten for who knows how long, either from poor fittment of the replacement (most likely due to the evidence of 2"thick bondo making up the missing steel sections) or simply from age.

His sugesstion was to make sure when i build the inner cowl to leave a small drain that can remove condensation and then add the same type drain at the bottom of the inner hinge houseing bulk head. All the ares inside the upper cowl and exposed hinge areas should be epoxy primed before welding each layer and in turn the moisture can travel out and away without rotting the metal (or at least slowing the rust process down signifigantly)

Kennys thought was to seal the upper section off completely where the a-pillar and roof line meet. Any moisture in the ceiling rails can be evacuated out the upper door jamb... this small hole can be monitored and is far enough away from the external ground mositure sources (rain, puddles, mud , etc) that it will stay clean and therefore operational for a longer time.

Im personally going to expoy primer each section as I fit it and spray the insides of the replacement upper A-pillar and the remaining orginanal A-pillar as best i can. Then plug the top of the pillar at the roof line and create a drain hole as Kenny sugessted. With the headliner in place, the roof is going to sweat, so they are both correct that moisture needs to be drained away. I just feel like in 5-10 years it will be alot easier to clean up the small drain holes than to remove the A-pillar/cowl in sections again...


Heres a photo of what it looks like inside the roofline and below is a cross section of the inner support/drain rail that you cant see from inside the vehicle..

Notice the channel running down the center of the inside tube rails.. this is the drain that they are refering to. It runs right into the underside of the top layers ridged section and that is open all the way through to the bottom like the sheetmetal guy said...
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cross section:

you would have to cut out the inner layer to work inside the corner and then replace it when you have finished.. other wise you will need to cut a hole in the roof to access the upper pillar joint...

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Im going to get the bottom sections comleted before i cut anymore of the roof away but when I do Ill let you know how plugging the pillar works out..

JP
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by jaber »

Awesome work, you are a lucky man to have access to a shop like that... :-bd
Jeff

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whsii
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by whsii »

Roof condensation:

Consider insulating the roof panel. Yes there is dura mat, and this mat and that mat. but I felt temp was more important than sound deadening. I used a plastic bubble insulation with a foil backing that is used in pre engineered metal buildings. It has an un godly r rating, 20 plus with it only being 5/16" thick. The bubbles connect so you cannot pop them, press on one section and the others take the extra air.

You can look at it at Lowes, 3' wide by 25 ft long roll.

Sitting in a ten degree outside air, you will not get condensation, when the cab warms up, then you will get condensation. If you have insulation on the roof to keep the warm air inside the cab from contacting the cold metal, you should not get condensation.

Just a thought.
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

I couldnt take it...

I took a few hours today and fit up the drivers side A-pillar section,

I apologize for my forgetfullness latley. I keep leaving the good camera. so the crappy phone was all I had


When we stoped last i had removed the top layer and cut small access holes in the cowl. it looked like this...
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so to start today the inner layer was removed and I cut out some larger sections of the inner cowl to remove all the rusty metal inside.
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I need access to deeper in the cowl than I can reach from the top and the inner wall had some surface rust any way,, so I cut out the inside for access... I will use this access later to be able to paint the high zinc primer inside the upper cowl and hinge bulkhead.
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The upper edge of that cut still has the old seam sealer on it. Before I weld the replacement in it will all be cleaned and preped.

this is the inner section, outer top section, and gasket rail cut to fit and clamped in place
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Checked for clearence with the outer cowl section layed in place
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the angel of the pillar is 50deg. I used my new angel finder to recored it and it will help me line up the roof later as well.
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the inner section needed a replacement made. It not only needs the area that was cut out replaced but also the corner flange the runs in the space just above and behind th corner section. I saved this piece so it could be easily reproduced when the time came.. as for the panel itself I used a scrap section of wood and cut out a template. It was adjusted as needed untill correct for the space

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all the wierd gold stuff is the old sealer that needs to be removed. Im planning to add a thin section of angle in the upper seem to strengthen the brace and make it easier and cleaner as far as the weldin is concerned.



The inner cowl has a small rectangular piece that ties the top of the upper A-pillar section to the bottom of the inner cowl section. Mine was basicly destroyed by the rust so I am in the process of fabricating the inner framework. So far there is this section of 1.25" square tube that fits perfectly with the upper A-pillar contur and touches on the outside corners to the cowl. Im going to work on a second piece to this tubing insert that spans the gap completing the tie in to the center cowl attachment point, outer wall, and to the side panel that was just fabricated. That will be stronger than stock and since its all exposed it will be completly rust proofed (if there is such a thing) . Either way it will have a much better chance of lasting the test of time than just the 19guage sheet that was in its place to begin with.

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heres the fit check with the addition of the inner panel and corner flange.

So far so good, starting to look kinda pretty! :lol:

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Image
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

so one of the last pieces to recreate is the gasket lip across the front. It was rotten and I have honestly not seen what it is supposed to look like or when it ties into..

ANY OF YOU GUYS WITH YOUR WINDSHIELDS PULLED... IF YOU COULD TAKE A PICK OF THIS CONER AND WHERE THE GASKET LIP ENDS IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!!! I need to know if it tucks in behind or crosses in front of the side gasket bracket lip

I feel like it makes more since design wise to cross over and terminate on the outer edge.. So for now thats what I created as the replacement... it needs to be countoured and twisted to fit correctly around the outer lip so i used the anvi and hammer to set the radious and twist the piece accordingly...

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and the final test fit of the evening... Not to bad for amature work!



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Truthfully today isnt anywhere near the final weld up, there is still complete sanding and possibly some media blasting to do , the inner sections need to be cleaned and primed, all the sections will need to be drilled out for the plug welds, and some of the internal structures need to be tweaked. After all that is done I will paint everything in either epoxy primer or zinc weld through primer prior to final assembly.

So the passenger side is a little worse in reguards to the fact that the driver side didnt need the lower panel replaced. Its still doable when replacing all three panels but it will need to be finsihed in two parts to maintain the integrity of the pillar... hopefully, we will get to the passenger side this weekend!


Thanks, having fun around here! hope you guys are ...

JP
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

whsii wrote:Roof condensation:

Consider insulating the roof panel. Yes there is dura mat, and this mat and that mat. but I felt temp was more important than sound deadening. I used a plastic bubble insulation with a foil backing that is used in pre engineered metal buildings. It has an un godly r rating, 20 plus with it only being 5/16" thick. The bubbles connect so you cannot pop them, press on one section and the others take the extra air.

You can look at it at Lowes, 3' wide by 25 ft long roll.

Sitting in a ten degree outside air, you will not get condensation, when the cab warms up, then you will get condensation. If you have insulation on the roof to keep the warm air inside the cab from contacting the cold metal, you should not get condensation.

Just a thought.

cool, I used that stuff behind my door panels and was thincking the same thing as far as using it on the roof... The eastwood stuff claims its not rated for the roof...dyanmatt claims theirs is rated for the heat level, but both claim alot of money for there stuff...


What adhesive did you use to apply the space foil"?


I took a better picture of the upper seem for you today, hopefully yours looks aliitle more intact than this one. :oops:

Image

Thanks

JP
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

Got the driver side internals and A-pillar welded in this weekend. Made a few mistakes that Im going to have to work on later but overall it went very well.

In the last A-pillar repair post the Sections had been fit up, and I was working on the inner cowl/A-pillar tie in section.

To clarify... (since I realize that probably no one has 3 layers of their jeep cut away to see this first hand) ... the Cowl , A-pillar, Windshield gasket molding, firewall, and door jamb hinge area all tie into this corner that I have disected in the previous photos. The original design supported and tied all these layers together by a series overlaping flanges spot welded together on top of the A-pillar and under the lower/inner cowl wall. My Cherokees internals in that area were disentegrated so that non of the flanges were connecting any longer. To recreate this original design was noot possible so I needed to find a simple but effective replacement.

The internal support ties need to span the gap between the outer firewall/ hinge bulkhead across to the inner firewall (immediatly behind the dash). It needs to connect at the top to the inner cowl bulkhead and on the bottom to the A-pillar shaft itself. The issue is that its not a square or rectangle inside.. Its a "whatthefishagram" the a-pillar has its specific shape, and the inner cowl and outer firewall are tapered in opposite diections...

Im sorry, Im trying to make it not confusing but this stuff is hard to explain.

So here is the solution to the inner brace:

expanded:
Image

together:
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welded:
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Ok remeber this piece for later in the picture sequence....


So with the brace fabricated the different layes of the A-Pillar were drilled for Plug welds.

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Here is where a very stupid mistake was made...I was super stoaked to have finally finished the braces and actually have them fit. In the the excitement I rushed the marking of the plug weld locations without thinking it through. The center holes are useless...there is a big gap under the crest of that section... now I have all these holes to fill in when i get finished... grumble...

The areas were wire wheeled for the final time and brought to the cleanest level possible. All the replacemet metal was sanded clean, roughed up, and cleaned with brake cleaner to remove all oils before primer was applied.
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Next the entire area and every nook and corner i could reach was coated in High Zinc Weld Through Primer. I should note that epoxy primer was recommended over the weld through, but it was very costly and needed almost a week! to cure before you were supposed to weld on it...

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The individual pieces were also coated.
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Inner layer clamped and ready...No going back now..
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Welded:
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(ugly but actually got some good welds considering how nervouse I was)

Reapplied primer where needed and welded in the upper section and gasket rail.

Guitarsail (Jarod) snagged this pic of the majical dance between me and my HF 90amp stick welder... Yup ...
Image

Welded and ground down fairly flush.. The stick welder just wouldnt lay it down clean enough to get the perfect "all weld" repacement I was hopeing for... Im going to look into lead filler techniques but if thats not worth it a little!!! filler will be enough to blend the pinholes and minor imperfections.

Image

okay remeber that little insert from the beginning of this post?

Here is where it come into play:

In order to get it situated now that the A-pillar is filling up its fair share of space you have to access it through the side wall. the tag that was left hanging over the inside was drilled for a plug weld and tacked on through the inner panel to hold it in place while the rest of the connections were made.
I admit this isnt beautiful and shiny like the stuff above the cowl line but I seiously hope that NO ONE! ever has to cut this thing open like this again and spending time grinding and polishing out a section that is never going to be seen was not a priority at this point.

Inner cowl panel removed and brace in place:
Image

this is looking down the A-pillar into the guts of the cowl... Its plug welded twice to the top, once through the side, onto the pillar itself, and plugged through a hole in the inside to the inner cowl.
Image

At this point I shot everywhere i could reach from the side panel access with high zinc primer. most of these areas are not in direct exposure to the elements but i figured why not.

then,
Inner cowl pannel replacement installed
The upper seems need to be sealed. I cut out the fatory stuff and will do all the seals at the same time once the fab work is finshed. I know the plug welds are ugly but the dash and brake sit right over it so i didnt exactly shoot for the stars for finish.
Image

last but not least the internal cowl/ a-pillar area got slightly overkill High Zinc primer application. Before its sealed up its going to get a top coat of something but i havent decided yet.

The actually pillar still needs to have the finish work done to it but since its going to be a while before i get the rest of the winshield corners completed it got a coat of rust preventitive primer as well. :;):
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Florida83FSJCherokee
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Florida83FSJCherokee »

the next step is to replace the Inner and outer cowl cut away sections. This shouldnt be as gruling as the internal work but its still going to be a challange.

Inorder to help get my roll right in the outer panel i got a countour guage to help me out. Hopefully i wil get that done this wekend and Ill post how it turns out.

Image

I like this angle... :;):
Image


In other fun news its almost time to take the body off and get it living on its dolly. Monday evening I had a couple hours free and decided to strip it the rest of the way down...

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the original paint is beautiful. Vintage metallic red... I was cosidering going a different color but this has definitly got me thinking...

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the first! ha! todo list is getting smaller!
Image


Ok, thanks for checking it out and ill keep going on the windshield repairs. Passenger side is the whole deal...all three layers...but ive been devising a plan! :;):

JP

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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by Road Trip »

Very good work! This is going to be a Prissy Jeep for sure.
Robert

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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by surfwagoneer »

nicely done......looking great
89 GW- Rebuilt 360 w RV camshaft, 4 inch Rustys spring lift, 1" body lift, dana 44HD front, 14 bolt rear 3.73's.
78 Cherokee Chief- work in progress
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Re: 83 Cherokee education through restoration

Post by whsii »

Florida83FSJCherokee wrote:
whsii wrote:Roof condensation:

Consider insulating the roof panel. Yes there is dura mat, and this mat and that mat. but I felt temp was more important than sound deadening. I used a plastic bubble insulation with a foil backing that is used in pre engineered metal buildings. It has an un godly r rating, 20 plus with it only being 5/16" thick. The bubbles connect so you cannot pop them, press on one section and the others take the extra air.

You can look at it at Lowes, 3' wide by 25 ft long roll.

Sitting in a ten degree outside air, you will not get condensation, when the cab warms up, then you will get condensation. If you have insulation on the roof to keep the warm air inside the cab from contacting the cold metal, you should not get condensation.

Just a thought.
3M 77 or better should hold it forever.


cool, I used that stuff behind my door panels and was thincking the same thing as far as using it on the roof... The eastwood stuff claims its not rated for the roof...dyanmatt claims theirs is rated for the heat level, but both claim alot of money for there stuff...


What adhesive did you use to apply the space foil"?


I took a better picture of the upper seem for you today, hopefully yours looks aliitle more intact than this one. :oops:

Image

Thanks

JP
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