The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

[paulclark]

Great to meet y’all – Tripwire is my neighbor and he recommended this place. I’m glad for the chance to tap your technical expertise!

In 1963 my dad bought a new Wagoneer – he’d actually meant to order a Willys Commando, but waited too long, so in early 63 to his chagrin he got the new Wagoneer instead. For the next ten years the Blue Jeep became a staple of our family adventures – wilderness camping, canoe trips, and a lot of off road exploring back before there was a word for it.



In ’69 we were headed home in the evening with some neighbors. It had been sleeting, and the Missouri roads were coated in glare ice. We were moving slowly in 4WD, but finally one hilly curve was too much and the Jeep went nose-first into the ditch, and did a long end-over-end. We all crawled out, and my parents hushed 6-year old me for saying ‘Poor Jeep!” instead of asking if the other people were OK (they were.)

Problem was, we’d originally lived in Michigan, where rock salt was applied liberally at every snowfall, and the poor Wagoneer body was badly rusted out, beyond repair, they said. However, my Dad knew this crazy body man (who raced sprint cars on the weekend – that kind of crazy) who talked him into splicing on the back half of a front-ended Gladiator pickup he knew about.

But he didn’t just chop the body and stick on a bed – he actually cut the frame in half and welded the Gladiator rear frame to the Wagoneer front frame! The back of the cab, roof, and overhang are Gladiator, and everything forward of this is Wagoneer! There were issues with this of course, he never figured out how to get the bumpers to fit, so my dad bolted the 3-piece bumpers back on with 2x4s as spacers and all was well. Meanwhile the body man got himself killed in a sprint car accident shortly after finishing. And… the state of Missouri decided they could not tell if the front or the rear half of the frame counted as the vehicle, so they asked for a signed statement by the body man who did the work… Fast forward ten years and the frame welding job was cracking, so my Dad had it solidly rewelded by a shop which specialized in wrecked farm trucks, and they were a little loose with what constitutes straight, so now the bed has a slight upward angle. Sigh.

Fast forward twenty years, the Blue Jeep is now mine, and of course I want to restore it, and I did have it running for a short time, but calamity was about to fall. In 2005 I got sick, which I won’t go into except to say that I got over it and won and got on with my life. But during the worst of it, the nearby river flooded, and unable to get out of bed, I watched out the window as my Jeep (and a couple others) went underwater completely. And then, afterwards, sat with no care, no fluid changes, nothing.

Fast forward ten years to this year. I finally got a shop situation set up and a place to safely work on the Blue Jeep. So now I’m digging into it, to see what it’s going to take. A lot, I know. This one is in worse shape than many parts cars you’ve had hauled away, no doubt. But I don’t care. This one has been in the family, I have history with it, and however impractical, I’m gonna get it back on the road.

Thanks for reading my story and thanks in advance for the technical help I know I’m gonna need. I guarantee this one is already making me happy, just working on it. Updates to come shortly.

[paulclark]

Bringing it home to safety

[paulclark]

Giving it a once-over with a pressure washer to remove years of grime and green.

[paulclark]

This interior is rough. But I've seen worse.

[paulclark]

Much work to do under the hood. The 230 Tornado is sadly in very bad shape, since it sat with water in the cylinders. Eventually I'll pull it apart but the immediate solution is to find another 230. I really like this motor.

[paulclark]

Posting all these as 'before' shots to enjoy later, when I know I'll enjoy the contrast.

[paulclark]

After pressure washing, I went over with a stiff brush and worked Rust mort into all the surface rut areas, and used a wire brush to remove any loose scale. This process and materials I know pretty well from other projects.

Next I got a set of 1963 Jeep paint chips and had a gallon of Val-Spar rust inhibiting enamel tinted to match the original Sierra Blue. This over rust-mort works very well to convert and bind rust, and to act as primer for more layers. it takes weeks and weeks to dry and it's gummy until it does, but after that it's a very tough coating that can be worked and detailed. This gives me a factory original color in a single stage paint. Why not a spray gun? Because I don't like them, and this is all about having fun, for me. And I like the end results.








I remember in the 70's when my dad gave the fenderwells a coat of barn red rustoleum, but I can' remember what color it was underneath. Were the fenderwells and radiator core support really blue, or were they black? I can't recall.

[paulclark]

I've been looking for a 230 Tornado motor for a long time, and one finally showed up on Craig's List, and I drove hours and picked it up.

However... the @#%$# previous owner left it sitting outside with the oil fill cap off... the engine block was full of water. However, this was still better than the 230 I have, so I took it anyway.




This motor is from a 62 Willys, and it has many traces of the original gold paint. It also came with the gearbox, which I'm not sure is the same as what's in my Gladiator. Guess I'll find out.

[paulclark]

Then I made it on this forum, and Tripwire kindly posted this question for me on the bellhousing:

http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=11281

[paulclark]

So far I've filled the block and cylinders with WD40, to displace any remaining water. Then it's time to change it out for penetrating oil and try to get the cylinders unstuck. Probably will end up taking the head off to have a look inside the cylinders, too. Really hoping I can get it unstuck and that the bottom end is still in good shape. we'll see.

[motcat]

Great story. Looking forward to the build thread on this.

[tedlovesjeeps71]

So far I've filled the block and cylinders with WD40, to displace any remaining water. Then it's time to change it out for penetrating oil and try to get the cylinders unstuck. Probably will end up taking the head off to have a look inside the cylinders, too. Really hoping I can get it unstuck and that the bottom end is still in good shape. we'll see.

You may also want to try auto transmission fluid mixed with acetone. 75% atf to 25 acetone. Works as a great penetration fluid.

Sent from my SM-N930V using Tapatalk

[tgreese]

Interesting. It's different ... here's a case where it would never be revived without the sentimental attachment.

It has the Wagoneer front axle, but what did he use for the rear axle? It looks like the J-truck axle. The rear track of a J-truck is really wide compared to the Wagoneer track, so a 4x8 sheet of plywood will fit between the wheel houses. Utility trucks are the same way. I'd expect the Wagoneer and J-truck axles to have widely different ratios, like 4.88s for the truck and 3.73s for the Wagoneer. Some Wagoneers got the deeper gears, but most were meant for mostly highway use, and got 3.73s. None of the trucks got 3.73s, according to the book. One or the other axle would need to be regeared to use 4WD.

So if it's never been driven in 4WD, or it's missing the front driveshaft or something, expect to have different ratios front and back. I'd check it to be sure before trying 4WD.

[paulclark]

You may also want to try auto transmission fluid mixed with acetone. 75% atf to 25 acetone. Works as a great penetration fluid.

That's an interesting formula! It's been interesting researching stuck motors and what people use to unstick them. Another formula I hear is 75% diesel oil, 25% ATF and a dash of brake fluid. Salt and pepper to taste, soak until done I guess!

I've dealt with some flooded motors before. When we went to load it, water spilled out of the oil breather - which means the bottom end was underwater, but not the top. If I'm lucky, and the oil films held out, the bottom end might be OK. And the pistons should just have normal variety stuck rings.

The original 230 that's in it now, that's another story. Most of the cylinders sat with water until it dried up, and the aluminum pistons I'm sure are history. Getting that one unstuck will mean complete disassembly and lots of tapping and most likely a new set of pistons. But that's for another day.

BTW, if anyone in the PNW has a spare 230, hit me up. I'm not set on using this particular motor, but for sure I do want a 230 Tornado.

[paulclark]

Interesting. It's different ... here's a case where it would never be revived without the sentimental attachment.

For sure. Really glad this isn't the first project I've tackled, too. But extra rewarding to see progress after all these years.

It has the Wagoneer front axle, but what did he use for the rear axle? It looks like the J-truck axle. The rear track of a J-truck is really wide compared to the Wagoneer track, so a 4x8 sheet of plywood will fit between the wheel houses. Utility trucks are the same way. I'd expect the Wagoneer and J-truck axles to have widely different ratios, like 4.88s for the truck and 3.73s for the Wagoneer. Some Wagoneers got the deeper gears, but most were meant for mostly highway use, and got 3.73s. None of the trucks got 3.73s, according to the book. One or the other axle would need to be regeared to use 4WD.

Very good info. Highway gears in the Wagoneer for sure, we logged a lot of vacation miles back in the day.

So if it's never been driven in 4WD, or it's missing the front driveshaft or something, expect to have different ratios front and back. I'd check it to be sure before trying 4WD.

We drove it in 4WD in the 70s after the conversion, and I don't believe there was any problem. I recall driving it around a little bit in the 80s and it seemed fine. But for sure I'll check it out now before assuming. Should I expect to see ratio tags on the axles?

[paulclark]

More questions - I got some good answers in the previous thread on getting the bellhousing off the new motor. That also made me realize I'm assuming how things should be done, and it might not be accurate. So let me think through my next steps and see what y'all think:

on vehicle:
-remove floor access panel
-disconnect driveshafts
-unbolt & remove gearbox
-disconnect and remove engine

new motor prep:
-get it unstuck
-inspect cylinder condition
-consider bottom end condition
-machine work as needed
-replace & assemble clutch

assembly:
-install engine'
-install gearbox & transfer case
-install driveshafts

And then a -lot- of other little stuff all over the place. But is there anything out of sequence or wrong about the above?

Thanks again and in advance

[tgreese]

There should be tags on the axles with the Jeep PN (9xxxxx), a Dana PN, and the ratio. They are often lost, but there will be a tooth count stamped into the side of the ring gear. For example, "41 11" is 41/11 = 3.73. You'll need to pull the covers and drain the axles regardless. If this truck has been under water, you'll need to drain all the fluids and reseal/refill the knuckles.

[tgreese]

Regarding assembly order, my preference would be to install the engine and transmission together. A T-90 is not that heavy or long, and it's a lot easier to do the transmission installation on the shop floor. You could install it with the transfer case too, but as I recall, it's pretty easy to get the transfer case over the output gear. I've dropped the engine and trans together, and I've also done the transmission installation from under the car a few times. With the T-90, that should not be difficult.

Certainly I would remove the hood, radiator and that valuable grille before the engine comes out if I did not remove the front clip entirely. There's another active thread right now about removing the front clip - http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtop ... 10&t=11274 - again, up to you. Think it through and decide what seems like the best approach for you. Not a J-truck, but I have pulled a 352 and cast iron Cruisomatic together (750-800 lbs? and long) from an F100 with a rented cherry picker without removing the clip, so it's quite achievable if you can lift high enough.

[paulclark]

There should be tags on the axles with the Jeep PN (9xxxxx), a Dana PN, and the ratio. They are often lost, but there will be a tooth count stamped into the side of the ring gear. For example, "41 11" is 41/11 = 3.73. You'll need to pull the covers and drain the axles regardless. If this truck has been under water, you'll need to drain all the fluids and reseal/refill the knuckles.

Sounds good, I'll look for that while I'm under there. I'll have to look up threads on knuckle service as that's new to me.

[paulclark]

Regarding assembly order, my preference would be to install the engine and transmission together. A T-90 is not that heavy or long, and it's a lot easier to do the transmission installation on the shop floor. You could install it with the transfer case too, but as I recall, it's pretty easy to get the transfer case over the output gear. I've dropped the engine and trans together, and I've also done the transmission installation from under the car a few times. With the T-90, that should not be difficult.

Certainly I would remove the hood, radiator and that valuable grille before the engine comes out if I did not remove the front clip entirely. There's another active thread right now about removing the front clip - http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtop ... 10&t=11274 - again, up to you. Think it through and decide what seems like the best approach for you. Not a J-truck, but I have pulled a 352 and cast iron Cruisomatic together (750-800 lbs? and long) from an F100 with a rented cherry picker without removing the clip, so it's quite achievable if you can lift high enough.

I have to admit that my judgement was probably clouded by the luxury of having a removable floor panel for access. But you're right, everything is easiest doing assembly on the shop floor and then installing as complete a unit as possible. Which also makes me realize that I'd better remove the old motor first so I can have them side by side as I put it back together.

Seems like it should all come out cleanly enough, shouldn't be a big deal to get it up and out. Hood off for sure, and radiator. Clip seems like a lot of work if it's not necessary. I know the temptation is, especially with extreme conditions, to take everything apart to 'get at' it, but opening those cans of worms is not always fruitful. I'm going to assume I can get along without removing the clip until I run into a roadblock.

Thinking of what other areas need special consideration, more than just the usual 'sitting for 30 years' stuff.

Tailgate - the hinge is rusted, so you can unchain the latch but it doesn't move. Pretty concerned as it seems like it's a long tube in there and of course it was all wet for lots of rust adhesion area. Penetrating oil and time, for sure. Wondering about drilling holes or any other way to get the penetrant farther in.

Gas tank - I actually have the original and it isn't half bad, my dad had repaired pinhole leaks for years unsuccessfully with fiberglass. it's not in working shape but could be repaired. But I'm planning a modern plastic replacement along with sender. Will also need to source a filler hose and mounting hardware.

Doors - the drivers' side is rusted beyond hope, and I have a replacement coming this week. Working doors will make a big difference. The pass. side is stuck and I'll be removing the inside liner to free it up.

Seat: some of the springs are rusted away, so i'll need to find a replacement for the original bench seat. Looking at photos, I didn't realize bucket seats were an option in these trucks.

Dash - Figuring the original gauges are totaled, so I scored an identical replacement - pretty sure I'll be able to get one working dash going with these two.



Thanks for the feedback nd suggestions, will keep you posted as things progress.