The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

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paulclark
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by paulclark »

mud89 wrote:Thanks a lot, i thought it was maybe one of the rare late '65 with a Tornado, but it's actually a very early '65 built in august 1964. AFAIK no changes for an early '65, changes are later at the beginning of 1965 and concern the carbs. You should have more infos with the engine number near the right front corner of the block, example : ND60C-1000. For the engine block paint, i know a yellowish paint, not this red, other Tornado rigs owners may help.

Good to know! I'll check the engine number. There are two layers of paint I see, a more reddish one on top but a more orangish underneath, like the color sometimes seen on M-715 motors.
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paulclark
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

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Lots of work accomplished, especially body and interior progress. Will update with pics soon - but the most exciting part is I found an engine! But it's getting more complicated.

What I scored is a VERY strong running low mileage 230 from a 68 M715, complete with transmission, transfer case, and drivelines! Really good stuff, and all stuff I could really stand to replace! However... this opens several cans of worms. Help me out here, what am I going to need to attend to?

Image



-M715 engine has different motor mounts, on the side of the block instead of the front cover. I am hoping to get the motor mounts from the donor, which is getting a big block chevy swap.

-M715 has divorced transfer case with offset driveline. So that means I need to get a different rear end right? One with an offset diff case?

- parking brake is on the transfer case rather than the rear wheels

-cable actuated clutch - thinking of running the M715 setup instead of the hydraulic, opinions?

Anything else I'm forgetting?

To be honest, this is looking more and more like it would benefit me to remove the cab and bed from the frame, to leave room to get the driveline mounted properly. I wasn't planning on this, but once I realized the old transfer case had issues (shifter is locked up) it looks like this larger swap is in order, and at a certain point it seems like frame-off is a lot less work. I know I'll find lots more problems if I do though!
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Isn't the 715 divorced case an NP200? Like a 205 but without the low range or something...



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Kaiserman
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by Kaiserman »

It's not really worth swapping in the M715 motor. I did on my 63 and wouldn't again.

Motor mounts are different, (I've been told the bell housing pattern is different, so you can't just swap on your transmission), you need to run a divorced T-case (the NP200 doesn't like highway speeds, seals have been known to melt) and to do that you need to swap in the M715 cross members or make your own. The M715 t-case cross members won't fit your frame with out boxing the inside (M715's are boxed farther back then civilian motors, so the cross members too narrow for an unboxed frame). The mounts for the t-case cross members are welded to the M715 frame.

M715 230's are the lower compression version.

You will need to modify both of your driveshafts. The M715 drive shafts will probably be too short. I lucked out and the front shaft fit, but I have a D44 and you have a D27 which is shorter from the center line to the yoke than a D44. The M715 rear shaft was too short for me.

Not much swaps between the M715 motor and the civi motor. The intake and exhaust manifold will, as will the internals but the head, block and timing cover are all different. The water pumps are different, die early (mainly to the super heavy pulley the M-series use) and are expensive to replace.

An M715 SHOULD NOT have a cable operated clutch. They use standard mechanical linkage. I used the stock 63 hydraulic clutch set up on mine with a modded push rod.

Use all of the M715 parking brake parts and everything will work fine. You may need to cut your floor opening longer/larger. I did.

The good news is that 230 has probably been rebuilt. IIRC Jeep delivered the motors black and the Army repainted them OD green when they where rebuilt. My 40K mile 230 had been rebuilt and was .040 over.
1971 J2500 Gladiator Custom-Cab Platform Stake on 126" wb. B350/T18A/D20 D60/D60-3 w/locker 4.10's Ramsey 8klb PTO winch, Day-brook dump. 225/95R16's
1969 J3800 Gladiator 3407Z Camper Truck. B350/T18A/D20 D44/D60-3 w/4.10's
1968 Wagoneer Custom 327/TH400 Mostly Stock
1987 Cherokee Laredo 2-Door 4.0L/AW4 4" lift OEM swing out tire carrier and brushguard
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paulclark
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by paulclark »

Great info! Yes, the motor plate shows a rebuild. Sounds like lots of work ahead.
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

I think most would look the other way if you even chose a SBC swap over the 715 stuff. More work for less performance and harder to find parts vs simple and reliable performance and parts available almost at 7-11.
Better idea is to sell the 715 for a profit and invest in what works for your rig.


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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

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Yeah I hear ya... voices of reason.

I'm way beyond reason here. The sentimental value of this original core vehicle, and the 230, are what keep me on it. If it were a matter of good sense and practicality, it would be something far more sensible. This is for sentimental value, and fun. I'll take your advice as wise and admit I'm going sideways as far as good sense, but sometimes that's what we do. The presence of this Jeep in the family means something that doesn't make any sense at all, but oh well.

What rear end will work with the offset diff? Only from an M715 or is there another donor?
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Kaiserman
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by Kaiserman »

Your stock rear diff will be fine, it's already off set to begin with.

Or you can run a divorced NP205 from a Dodge, keep the centered rear output and the rear wheel parking brakes. That's what I did. The M715 jack shaft fit right up, as did the shift lever rods for the 4WD shifter. Though IIRC I swapped the rods left to right.

Try and get an M715 radiator. They are larger and 3 core. You need to modify your radiator support for it to fit, but it's worth it. They also had full fiberglass fan shrouds. I had all that on my 63 and never had cooling problems.
1971 J2500 Gladiator Custom-Cab Platform Stake on 126" wb. B350/T18A/D20 D60/D60-3 w/locker 4.10's Ramsey 8klb PTO winch, Day-brook dump. 225/95R16's
1969 J3800 Gladiator 3407Z Camper Truck. B350/T18A/D20 D44/D60-3 w/4.10's
1968 Wagoneer Custom 327/TH400 Mostly Stock
1987 Cherokee Laredo 2-Door 4.0L/AW4 4" lift OEM swing out tire carrier and brushguard
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

paulclark wrote:Yeah I hear ya... voices of reason.

I'm way beyond reason here. The sentimental value of this original core vehicle, and the 230, are what keep me on it. If it were a matter of good sense and practicality, it would be something far more sensible. This is for sentimental value, and fun. I'll take your advice as wise and admit I'm going sideways as far as good sense, but sometimes that's what we do. The presence of this Jeep in the family means something that doesn't make any sense at all, but oh well.

What rear end will work with the offset diff? Only from an M715 or is there another donor?
Does anything us jeepers do make sense in a logical way? ImageImage
Kaiserman has a much better grasp on that setup than I do so I defer to his wisdom. I suppose it depends on what the end goal is of this truck? How much your willing to change, money available, time, etc... The normal hurdles.
If your planning to drive it a lot, work the truck some with towing and such, it may be better in the long run to use just the donor motor and find a way to fit better stuff behind that. I'd think a T18/Dana 20 would be much happier in there and a lot less issues. Just getting it to mate to the motor is tricky.


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Kaiserman
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by Kaiserman »

What wheel base is your Gladiator/Wagoneer?
1971 J2500 Gladiator Custom-Cab Platform Stake on 126" wb. B350/T18A/D20 D60/D60-3 w/locker 4.10's Ramsey 8klb PTO winch, Day-brook dump. 225/95R16's
1969 J3800 Gladiator 3407Z Camper Truck. B350/T18A/D20 D44/D60-3 w/4.10's
1968 Wagoneer Custom 327/TH400 Mostly Stock
1987 Cherokee Laredo 2-Door 4.0L/AW4 4" lift OEM swing out tire carrier and brushguard
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paulclark
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by paulclark »

Kaiserman wrote:What wheel base is your Gladiator/Wagoneer?
Oh my that's a good question. Will have to measure. I -think- it's the J-200 wheelbase, as the cab seems to be spliced behind the door.

All this is tremendous information and good news. And since the t-case will mount directly in the area where the two frames are spliced, it really does seem like a good idea to take the cab off to get a clear look at everything and make sure it's right. You guys are gonna laugh/be scared like me when you see how weird this thing is. What happens when a sprint car builder puts two Jeep halves together. A weird drivetrain would just add to the fun.

Can anyone point me to threads where someone has taken a J-truck cab off? Would be a big help to see pics.
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paulclark
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by paulclark »

one thing I noticed is that the Wagoneer front fenders don't have the fender flares that the J-truck does, part of why the whole thing looks weird, like dualies wider in the back when they're not really. Both quarters are crunched, and I have another straight solid front clip, so I'm thinking of swapping the whole thing and just running the original front face panel and trim for originality. That would give it matching front and rear fender flares.Image
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by Stuka »

Yeah, the trucks certainly look better with their original front fenders.
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by paulclark »

Still looking for pics of FSJ cab removal. Seems like it could be done with a an engine hoist and straps?
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az chip
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by az chip »

You should message 66stepside. Pretty sure he has pulled cabs. Might try to google it as well and add FSJN to the search.
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by paulclark »

YouTube videos did the trick, I see what it's about. Been working on unibody cars so long it seemed strangely easy at first.
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by jpswapmohn »

Makes me think of the old adage: This is my grandfather's axe. My father replaced the handle. I replaced the head. This is my grandfather's axe..
How about putting the truck/waggy cab on the M715 frame?
One day I will wake up and realize that my jeep is complete...one day, I just know it.
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by paulclark »

Too True!

The rest of the M715 is someone else's project, BBC conversion. Very cool truck, tho I can understand why a low compression 230 might be underpowered for it.
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by paulclark »

Kaiserman wrote:Your stock rear diff will be fine, it's already off set to begin with.
Must be the diff from the Wagoneer, it's centered.

Kaiserman wrote:Or you can run a divorced NP205 from a Dodge, keep the centered rear output and the rear wheel parking brakes. That's what I did. The M715 jack shaft fit right up, as did the shift lever rods for the 4WD shifter. Though IIRC I swapped the rods left to right.
Does it need to be from a Dodge? I see them in Chevys and Broncos too, different spline count maybe.

Kaiserman wrote:Try and get an M715 radiator. They are larger and 3 core. You need to modify your radiator support for it to fit, but it's worth it. They also had full fiberglass fan shrouds. I had all that on my 63 and never had cooling problems.
Got the radiator!
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Kaiserman
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Re: The Blue Jeep – ’63 Gladiator started life as a Wagoneer

Post by Kaiserman »

I don't recall any of the FSJ axles being centered back then. Might want to double check. They aren't massively off set. At any rate it shouldn't be an issue.

You'd need an NP205 from a Dodge as only Dodge ran a divorced case that was passenger drop. Ford was driver drop and GM where married cases.
1971 J2500 Gladiator Custom-Cab Platform Stake on 126" wb. B350/T18A/D20 D60/D60-3 w/locker 4.10's Ramsey 8klb PTO winch, Day-brook dump. 225/95R16's
1969 J3800 Gladiator 3407Z Camper Truck. B350/T18A/D20 D44/D60-3 w/4.10's
1968 Wagoneer Custom 327/TH400 Mostly Stock
1987 Cherokee Laredo 2-Door 4.0L/AW4 4" lift OEM swing out tire carrier and brushguard
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