Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

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racerx12003r1
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by racerx12003r1 »

I'll take all the help I can get. You hooked me when you started talking about Pratt and Whitney radials. :-bd This monster right now is running extremely rich. I went over it closely today and paid close attention but when I fired it up for a test run, it was fat. I run the mixture screws all the way in till they bottomed and its still running rich. Float level is set to spec which is 15/32. All ports are clear. I was going to take it back apart tomorrow, spray some soap on the plugs at the bottom and hit some compressed air on it to see if they are leaking. I have another quad I could build, but it was way too lean when I tried it.
Daniel

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haminawag
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by haminawag »

Tatsadasayago wrote:
haminawag wrote:Two things Jim: I'm a little unclear when you described this;

If the threaded collar came out along with the needle how were you able to create the necessary seal between the jet plate and the needle, seems to me it'd be a sloppy fit and allow the needle way too much room to move around, which would of course defeat the purpose of the entire project, what am I missing here?

The other thing is that I think your idea of using a vernier cable is genius. Have you thought of applying this same idea to the Thermo-Quad carburetor? Think of the possibilities, besides the thermo-resin fuel bowl, a single center-hung metering rod post, end mounted floats. I'm thinking about it now because the Carter design is basically what you've come up with instead of metering rods, a manually adjustable jet, so how about a manually adjustable jet made from the existing metering rods, hmmmmmmmm. I wonderrrrrrr. Good post BTW, I like the way you think.
I should have added that there are two viton seals in the mixture needle well that keep it stable and sealed. There is probably an inch pound or two of resistance as the needle is moved and I can only move the needle by pushing in the XY axis with a good amount of thumb pressure.
I explained things in more detail in another response if I didn't make enough sense.

Yeah, I love my ThermoBogs! Like the AFB I looked at how to remotely control the AFR by somehow controlling the height of a set of rods....but the complexity of a two or three stage step made my head hurt.
I have a few 625 TQ's with the altitude compensator but never got past how I would fool the aneroid into thinking the atmospheric pressure was different...
I think for a regular Joe who isn't into tinkering, the compensator route might be the way to go. I recall just about all the major carb models had some sort of device for those Colorado rigs that see 7-10k foot elevation changes over a day trip.

Thanks for reading!

Jim

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about the street Thermo-Quads with aneroids, I wouldn't waste my time with those, I was thinking of the Competition series T-Qs, much simpler design and most of them I've owned had single stage rods in them, basically sprint car & midget carbs. It's a simple matter to make your own s-s rods for them.
Anyway, on your AFR gauge, are you running dual exhaust? If so did you parallel the sensors and average out the readings? What went on there? Finally, did you give any thought to installing batch temperature sensors in each exhaust manifold to monitor exhaust temps at each cylinder? (I thought there was a kit available to do this) This would be a good way to prevent running too lean in any one cylinder. It'd be pricey, but still cost a helluve lot less than going EFI. Any way you go with this concept depends on accurate AFR readings to be really successful, even if you're just tuning a stock carb.
Let us not forget what our fathers taught us.

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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Yes Ham, my first inclination was to go with either a pyrometer at each port or just two for average. I just simply couldn't justify the cost versus my curiosity.
Smokey Yunik talked about balancing each cylinder at the intake port by epoxying popsicle sticks at the floor of the rich runners to lean them out etc. I've always been fascinated by such things but never had the means to go there.
Anyway, currently I'm running an O2 sensor just after each manifold flange--the G3 and the Edelbrock narrowband unit.

73

Jim
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haminawag
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by haminawag »

Tatsadasayago wrote:Yes Ham, my first inclination was to go with either a pyrometer at each port or just two for average. I just simply couldn't justify the cost versus my curiosity.
Smokey Yunik talked about balancing each cylinder at the intake port by epoxying popsicle sticks at the floor of the rich runners to lean them out etc. I've always been fascinated by such things but never had the means to go there.
Anyway, currently I'm running an O2 sensor just after each manifold flange--the G3 and the Edelbrock narrowband unit.

73

Jim
I remember seeing a single 4bbl bathtub intake of Smokeys that he had installed a complex system of sheet metal baffles into, it looked like a nightmare and he'd said it took many hours of trial and error before it would distribute the F/A mixture evenly over a wide range of RPM. But it goes to show what can be accomplished when you have a calibrated flow bench at your disposal. I wish I could think outside the box like him, remember his propeller driven alternator?
I'm gonna think about your idea used with a T-Q, but an AFR gauge or system of pyrometers is necessary first, a 6 MPG bump in mileage is nothing to sneeze at, and you did confirm this mileage increase? There were no other changes made between the 13 MPG reading and the 19 MPG reading?
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

haminawag wrote: I remember seeing a single 4bbl bathtub intake of Smokeys that he had installed a complex system of sheet metal baffles into, it looked like a nightmare and he'd said it took many hours of trial and error before it would distribute the F/A mixture evenly over a wide range of RPM. But it goes to show what can be accomplished when you have a calibrated flow bench at your disposal. I wish I could think outside the box like him, remember his propeller driven alternator?
I'm gonna think about your idea used with a T-Q, but an AFR gauge or system of pyrometers is necessary first, a 6 MPG bump in mileage is nothing to sneeze at, and you did confirm this mileage increase? There were no other changes made between the 13 MPG reading and the 19 MPG reading?
Yes, Smokey was always thinking way outside the box for sure! I had one of his cross ram intakes on a SB 400 that was impressive.

Regarding the fuel mileage, I need to make a few more distance runs to confirm the 19MPG. There are some reasons for this:

First, my Cherokee has two fuel tanks. the main coffin is a 26 gallon I believe, and the aux tank is 33 gallons. When the aux tank was added, the filler system was altered to fill it, then gravity transfer to the main via a 1 1/4" hose. Not only does this make filling a time consuming task, but it makes it pretty hard to know exactly how much fuel was used. I run on the aux tank by default then switch over to the main when needed. The sloshing of fuel during acceleration, deceleration and fuel transfer due to slope are fairly large factors. For all I know, my mileage could have been better than 19 or much lower than the baseline 13MPG.

So, Having removed the transfer hose and capped both openings, I've now isolated the two and will be able to arrive at a more precise MPG measurement.
My 20" manifold vacuum rule while testing is broken all the time since accelerating onto the freeway drags it down to around 12-13" because I can't dawdle or some fool will run into me hehe. Keeping the vacuum at or above 20" while cruising is the key in my opinion and likely affects the MPG more than anything besides the AFR being kept at Stoich 14.7:1.

Other than the Mixture control kit, nothing has changed on the Jeep since I did the restification back in 09 except interior updates.
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AwesomeJ10
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by AwesomeJ10 »

Very interesting and very nice!

How much did all that cost?

I'm betting that a junkyard TBI would cost less and run better and best of all, it's fully automatic requiring no manual adjustment once tuned, even with altitude/climate changes.
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Blake wrote:Very interesting and very nice!

How much did all that cost?

I'm betting that a junkyard TBI would cost less and run better and best of all, it's fully automatic requiring no manual adjustment once tuned, even with altitude/climate changes.
Well let's see:

I bought the Holley for this project for the better wheeling manners first, and for this A/F project but I'll add the cost anyway.

Carb: 289.00
Percy's Adjust-a-Jet: 79.00
Crossover tube kit: 9.00
NAPA vernier drive cable: 105.00
Innovate G3 Wideband AFR kit (Not required) 289.00
Brass rod, tubing, flat stock and misc items: 30.00

Total: 801.00 (512.00 without AFR kit) (223.00 without the new carb)

I had wanted to install a complete EFI system such as the Edelbrock Pro-Flow 2 or similar setup but the 4k just wasn't going to be there.
I did consider a salvage yard TBI but I have a hard time with installing used parts in 'Mission Critical' areas such as ignition, fuel, cooling, suspension and safety items. To only add to that, I spend an awful lot of time out in the desert or woods where a device failure CAN possibly kill me. With this current setup, when go have 'Gone Missing' way down south of the border, I can pack along the common fail items in my big black box such as starter, alternator, fuel pump, water pump, HEI coil and module, Starter solenoid, V regulator, hoses, belts, U-joints and wheel bearings/seals. I am sure given enough time, I might locate a GM IAC or injector 125 miles north of Tegucigalpa, but I prefer to keep things simple enough that I can handle breakdowns myself.
Having said ALL that, I understood from the start that this mixture project was going to cost me more than the salvage-yard TBI, and something few others might want to add to their vehicles, but be more reliable and durable than the EFI alternatives.

There is one personal reason for going this route, and I'm certain it's why I like FSJ's...to be different! :-bd
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AwesomeJ10
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by AwesomeJ10 »

Yeah, a junkyard TBI can be done for ~$400 and for another few bucks, you can get all the critical stuff such as ECM, ignition modules, complete spare TBI (with IAC, TPS and injectors), etc. and the best part is it will start everytime in the cold :D

I hear ya about being different though. Very, very nice system and I'm impressed!

Please keep us posted on the performance.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Thanks Blake!
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letank
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by letank »

Tatsadasayago wrote: My previous highway runs netted 11-13 MPG with 4:27 gears and 33x12.50 AT tires. measuring a true 32" height. This run just a week later netted 19MPG for the trip! I did my best not to worry the AFR too much but managed to keep it at the 14.7:1 ration for most of the trip.
Impressive results especially for Hwy 50

You wrote that the wide band AFR was not needded, but it still help you to get real numbers.
Michel
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Yes letank, I wanted to know if my nose and intuition were accurate regarding the AFR so I splurged on the good AFR meter. I suppose one could employ a pyrometer at one exhaust port or a temp sensor near a combustion chamber to read the temp and interpolate/extrapolate the readings when running at Stoich AFR. Gasoline aircraft engines employ a cylinder head temp sensor and the manufacturer determines the operating range for proper AFR and the pilot adjusts the mixture to maintain head temps within the green range on the gauge.
Of course, a coolant temp sensor at or near the chamber would probably be the most effective option if one could be installed without having to drill the head. I eyeballed the freeze plugs on mine and pondered installing one there...
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ChrisHager
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by ChrisHager »

This is awesome! It's nice seeing pictures to go with the description. :)

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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by will e »

I like it. I am a big holley Truck Avenger fan. I ripped off the TBI system I had and never looked back.

How do you like the Innovate G3 Wideband AFR kit? I am looking to put a wideband in my Jeep.

Do you know if the new adjustable block negates any of the Truck Avengers modification? I don't. I am going to see if I can figure out if it does.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

The cool part of the metering block is it doesn't affect the carb's emulsion or flow characteristics at all. The only change one might make is to add push-in jet extensions. I did some seriously high angle wheeling with my stock 4160 before adding a copy of the avenger's bowl vent made from clear vinyl fuel line and a Tee. Once I did that and added off-road needle and seats the carb runs well at angles where I'm beginning to get scared of going over. That's a HUGE improvement over the Edelbrock.

I like the Innovate unit and found it to be very accurate. My only complaint about it was it is V E R Y sensitive to ground resistance between the engine, frame and body. It wouldn't work at all until I added new copper ground straps between the body, frame, engine and battery. Once I did that, it worked great.

Jim
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csuengr
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by csuengr »

Seems an awful amount of work for 80 year old technology. No offense to Smokey Y., but technology has left him in the dust.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

You have a point there csuengr.
I guess I march to a different drum at times when it comes to employing 80 year old tech on my 37 year old vehicle.
The 38 million dollar state of the art Chinook I used to crew on employed tech that dated back centuries; gunpowder--operated door guns :P
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Nikkormat »

Why not employ a remote mounted servo with a simple computer program to monitor AFR and adjust for rich/lean conditions? If it were to break or malfunction you could manually actuate it... I'm considering going this route myself for the same reliability reasons as you but I would also like it to be something my mother or even worse my father could operate if they needed to come pick me up or if my jeep was the only functioning vehicle... again. :P
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Nikkormat »

I am really hooked on this idea. Want someone to do high altitude trials? I'll even work on incorporating the computer! It would be pretty easy, I think. And would bring the cost of the AFR and control cable significantly.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

That project is on hold until I get things sorted here in MT Nikk.
When I get back down to Sacramento in May/June I'll bring the tooling etc back with me and continue with refining and testing. I could use a high alt test mule so I'll keep you in mind.
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letank
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by letank »

Any updates?
Happy New year 2018
Michel
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